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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jun 26, 2014 14:18:44 GMT -5
Since at least the Dominion War, the Federation has had fighters. The first example we saw was the Peregrine, and a recent attempt at hybridization was the Valkyrie. But how are they organized? Well, from watching DS9 (specifically the big fight scenes), I heard two terms used specifically in reference to fighters: squadron and wing. I also noticed that I always saw 4 fighters flying in formation.
Now, we do know that a lot of the basis for Starfleet comes from the US Navy, so I'll use that as the basis for my theory. So using modern carrier air wings as the example, a typical breakdown for a full wing would be about 4 squadrons (48 craft). Each Squadron would be broken down into Flights consisting of 3 or 4 fighters each (3 in STO, 4 in DS9). Each Flight has a "Flight Commander", with the entire squadron led by the "Squadron Commander", and the wing commanded by a "Wing Commander".
Each wing would have a dedicated command staff that governs the entire wing and the "big picture" for each squadron. The individual squadrons would have their own command and support staffs that would handle day to day operations and maintenance.
The number of ships deployed per ship varies with each ship, and the organizational size varies as well. A large ship (or ship with large hangar capacity) like the Odyssey, Galaxy, or Armitage may carry up to a full Wing, while other ships like the Thunderchild or Sovereign may carry only a single squadron. Some ships do not have any fighters aboard, especially ships with limited hangar space like the Intrepid, Saber, or Defiant classes. Below is a list of several classes with what I estimated to be the fighter capacity (not including other craft such as shuttles or worker bees).
Oberth - n/a Constitution - n/a -- Vesper - n/a -- Excalibur - n/a -- Exeter - n/a -- Vesper - n/a Miranda - n/a -- Centaur - n/a -- Shikahr - n/a -- Ushaan - n/a Constellation - n/a Excelsior - n/a Ambassador - n/a Steamrunner - n/a Olympic - n/a -- Hope - n/a -- Horizon - n/a Saber - n/a -- Rapier - n/a -- Gladius - n/a Nebula - 24 max (2 squadrons) -- Magellan - 24 max (2 squadrons) Akira - 12 max (1 squadron) -- Oslo - n/a -- Zephyr - n/a -- Thunderchild - 12 max (1 squadron) -- Armitage - 48 max (1 wing) Yeager - n/a Galaxy - 48 max (1 wing) -- Celestial - n/a -- Envoy - n/a -- Monarch - 48 max (1 wing) -- Devron - 24 max (2 squadrons) Nova - n/a -- Rhode Island - n/a -- Aurora - n/a -- Quasar - n/a Defiant - n/a -- Gallant - n/a -- Vigilant - n/a -- Sao Paulo - n/a Intrepid - n/a -- Discovery - n/a -- Cochrane - n/a -- Bellerophon - n/a Prometheus - n/a -- Okinami - 8 max (2 flights) -- Cerberus - n/a -- Phoenix - n/a -- Hephaestus - n/a Sovereign - 24 max (2 squadrons) -- Solbianca - 24 max (2 squadrons) -- Noble -- 24 max (2 squadrons) -- Imperial - 24 max (2 squadrons) -- Majestic - 24 max 2 squadrons) -- Regent - 36 max (3 squadrons) Cheyenne - n/a -- Stargazer - n/a -- Dakota - n/a Luna - n/a -- Sol - n/a -- Polaris - n/a Vesta - 12 max (1 squadron) -- Aventine - 12 max (1 squadron) -- Rademaker - 12 max (1 squadron) Vanguard - n/a -- Navigator - n/a -- Nomad - n/a -- Sentinel - n/a (originally Avenger, retconned by Cryptic) -- Emissary - n/a Gryphon - n/a -- Hermes - n/a -- Dervish - n/a -- Tempest - n/a Oracle - n/a -- Trident - n/a -- Destiny - n/a Jupiter - 48 max (1 wing) Aquarius - n/a Odyssey - 48 max (1 wing) Chimera - n/a Avenger - 12 max (1 squadron)
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 14:27:13 GMT -5
To add to this as far as our fleet is concerned here are the fighter classes along wit their roll.
Peregrine - Space Superiority/Long range recon aged fighter but still a workhorse
Valkyrie Mark I- modular multirole craft Valkyrie Mark II- upgraded valkyrie with a stronger computer suit designed to support other craft in the battlespace.
Berzerker Mark I- attack interceptor Berzerkers are non warp capable support craft built for sublight speed and firepower they are attached only to carrier vessels and are supported by ELINT operations from valkyrie Mark II's.
Common Berzerker to Valkyrie Ratio 4/1.
((ooc explaination) Berzerkers are vipers and valks are raptors. or berzerkers are f35's and valks are awacs))
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DGM Cygnus
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Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 26, 2014 14:39:37 GMT -5
Actually on Adagio we have Dragons that fill the Berzerker role, that are mutli-role combat based on Valkyrie design but focused only on combat roles.
Ada has one in the hanger specific for her use, if Talia believes the situation warrants. It has no life support or systems designed to accommodate organic beings as a pilot, so it is able to be have just the little extra edge to combat systems and performance. In fact its name is..
The Last Dragon
hence the tie in to the song of the same name that Talia has always envisioned for Ada...
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 14:48:54 GMT -5
If its a valk variant it still fits in the Valk Mark I family.
Kinda like a F-35B and an f35C set for elint.
edit to add: thats why i thought they were all just valkyries.
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DGM Cygnus
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Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 26, 2014 15:00:07 GMT -5
They are not...it why they got called Dragons...next generation pass by taking feedback over the years off the Valkyrie design, engineering and pilot contribution and feedback then refining a multi-role combat platform. While Valkyrie can "sorta" fill a combat role, they are never as good as a dedicated fighter. Dragons bridge the combat role gap and are on par with specialty "fixed" design fighters, yet retain multi-role configurations though restricted to combat roles only. Valkyrie and Dragons are not fleetwide and in full production yet. Limited product due the extra time and resources involved, Starfleet is still trying to work out if it possible streamline production effort and that is prompted on how well they perform in the field as to shifting that priority up. Add to this the engineering and piloting skill set required to maintain and operate them is substantially higher. There are several vessels in operation that have them, Adagio is one. The USS Avacyn is the only "carrier" to have a full compliment of Valkyrie and Dragons. Besides.... The Last Berzerker is not very catchy...and has no song... ~xae P.S. Valkyrie including leading to the evolution of Dragon was always intended to get player interaction and feedback form the start to refine it...not sure why, but that never happened. So Talia and I kept things "in-house" since no one else seemed to care. daedalusomega.proboards.com/thread/2886/development-valkyrie-class-shuttle
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 16:12:15 GMT -5
Aight so the Dragon is the fighter bomber variant and the mark II is the standard multirole electronic warfare package. still works. They would be the new Space superiority fighter.
the reason for the naming scheme is because of the operational synergy i considere between the interceptors and the elint vessels
in norse mythology one of the reasons berzerkers (berserkers) were considered unstoppable was because it was thought that they could see the valkyries watching over them in battle, knowing their place in valhalla was assured.
Dragon's seem like they would be pretty strong but also resource expensive due to the modular nature. The idea is the mark II and berzerkers are both from the original valkyrie lineage but designed to fill the ship gap felt by the federation after years of warfare.
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DGM Cygnus
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Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 26, 2014 16:19:36 GMT -5
They are, I think Adagio had 5...6 if you count The Last Dragon, and the Valkyrie have been far more important to her overall mission since combat is not all she has done. I guess these days it up to Talia and whoever handles the ideas and things that she deals with...and Talia will let me know afterwards. p.s. I thought Norse had dragons too Naming convention keeping with the more intangible a mythic side of the mythos. Did I mention that Talia REALLY likes that Last Dragon song?
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 16:54:02 GMT -5
Dragons are weird in norse mythology, They exist, but are really really rare. There is the one Sigurd slays, then there is another, then there's Jorgumandr but its more of a serpent. and then there is Nidhoggr which consumes the souls of the unworthy.
Basically your Valkyrie Mark II is an upgraded version of the typical vaklyrie just you better based of what they learned.
your Berzeker would be your common interceptor
and yoru dragon would be when somethign really needs to disappear and you either can't get the carrier close enough to launch berzerkers or you need extra protection.
If I were on a carrier the flight wing might look something like this.
30 Zerkers 10 valks 8 Dragons
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 16:57:26 GMT -5
also for berzerkers... www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGCwQxHf2GAthis song is about berzerkers. Amon Amarth- Valhall Awaits me. Blood gushes from the wound The cut is wide and deep And before I turn around He falls to his knees A clear song rings in the blade When steel meets hardened steel. I hear the sound of wood that breaks, A swords cuts through my shield. I drop the shield and grab my axe, A weapon in each fist. The first blow makes the helmet crack, The axe cut to the teeth. I rip the axe from the head, covered in blood and brains. Leave the body lying dead, Ready to strike again. My sword cuts through clothes and skin, Like a hot knife cuts through snow. I smile as the bastard screams, when I twist my sword. Sword in my hand, Axe on my side. Valhall awaits me, Soon I will die. Bear skin on my back, Wolf jaw on my head. Valhall awaits me when I'm dead. I raise my axe above my head, My eyes stare in furious rage. Yet more blood will be shed, This is a victorious day! Blood gushes from the wound, The cut is wide and deep. As I turn around, I fall to my knees. Sword in my hand, Axe on my side. Valhall awaits me, Soon I will die. Bear skin on my back, Wolf jaw on my head. Valhall awaits me when I'm dead.
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on Jun 26, 2014 17:00:58 GMT -5
I'm actually curious why we're using the Valkyries from an engineering standpoint. There a fairly substantial number of concerns with them.
First: They aren't what anyone else is using, this makes us more difficult to supply, do maintenance, etc. Yes, there are industrial replicators, but there are always parts that can't be replicated and it still means that any newly assigned officers need to learn a new machine; both pilots and engineers.
Second: Modularity mean that you are getting a weaker product than if you'd simply designed with a primary purpose in mind. Major reasons for modularity include the idea of using parts from some other product to make it easier to avoid specialized construction. Starfleet already has their supply lines set up for existing products, making that not a benefit. If these other products are designed with a focus, they won't require wasted space and resources to handle potential other tasks.
Third: Having looked at the design, the modular portion of it is approximately a third to a half of the total volume of the Valkyrie. This means that we are substantially increasing the total storage space required. They still have approximately the same floor space, meaning that we aren't saving ground area, and now we need somewhere to put the modules. You could stow them in the cargo bays instead of the hangars, but then you have the added hassle of transport and then installation. A collection of ready to go shuttles/fighters would be more efficient.
Fourth: Starfleet has entire teams dedicated to the goal of developing improvements to existing products and creating new, superior products to the existing models to fit changing needs. The Adagio does not have that luxury; it is a ship with designated missions and isn't assigned necessarily even assigned personnel with the required skills and talents to design top of the line shuttles and fighters. We certainly have people who can repair them, but design and maintenance are two extremely different focuses. Someone trained in maintaining a shuttle would be able to offer a lot of insight into how to improve it and may be able to offer solution, but there are people who can take those ideas and make them even better.
Suggestion: The Valkyries were an interesting pet project that's sort of sat idle for a few years ICly since John was the biggest drive behind it (as far as I could tell). A new top of the line Adagio is being put out, and every aspect of it is likely designed with general Starfleet focus in mind rather than handling a unique project, so it's likely better equipped to handle normal Starfleet shuttles and fighters. The Valkyrie project may do well to be shelved, but in honor of it at least one of the Adagio's squadrons could be given the designation Valkyrie Squadron.
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DGM Cygnus
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 26, 2014 17:01:28 GMT -5
Maybe so...I never conceptualized it all in that detail. I do know Valkyrie should still be considered limited production and not common place. As I said no one had interest aside form Talia and myself so we kept it in house for that flavor it added to the Adagio experience, no different than the Avengers. Now it simply out of my hands.
Anja...your answer. Aside from letting Talia say , "launch the Valkyrie" is simple Anja...versatility. Starships often find themselves operating alone and crews never knowing the situation they will encounter. Making modular starships that can reconfigure while deployed is not currently feasible. So Valkyrie are an experiment to give Captains and crews more adjustable assets to help complete any mission in any situation they may face.
If you think John was the driving force...then you must have missed the numerous times I mentioned "Talia and I keeping it in house" It seem obvious that Talia was a huge driving force and me wanting to accommodate her fun. You can suggest anything you would like Anja, it is not my call...maybe whoever is making the call may like your ideas and input.
~the demoness
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 17:17:53 GMT -5
Anja thats what the mark II fixes. I envisioned that the Trials told starfleet what they needed to know about the valkyries and that was that more often then not they were used in s surveillance / recon package so that became the standard, the combat functions were offloaded onto a specialized strike craft in the berzerkers. The valk design is more compact than a mark 11 shuttle, and by this time they are in all the mjolnir variant evengers, they are on armitage carriers where the package (valk II's and zerkers) would be being deployed to replace perigrine wings which require more space and maintenance.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 26, 2014 17:57:22 GMT -5
Why did the evil demoness even go with Valkyrie name in the first place?
If you read Talia's entry to The Lady of Her Secrets and listen to the music clip provided...did you happen to see title of the movie it came from?
Adagio is Talia's ship and as her game master I have worked to help give it her signature mark. Talia does not want the Adagio to be seen a only a warship...she is a Lady of the Stars upholding and defending the all virtues of the Federation. Adagio's tools, like the Valkyrie, were meant to reflect that as well.
...but you know what, maybe people are right. I have just doing it all wrong. Why do I even bother...
~the demoness
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 26, 2014 18:34:22 GMT -5
I like the valk name xae. But it would be odd for someone named Bragi not to like the valkyrie name.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jun 26, 2014 18:45:40 GMT -5
Anja...your answer. Aside from letting Talia say , "launch the Valkyrie" is simple Anja...versatility. Starships often find themselves operating alone and crews never knowing the situation they will encounter. Making modular starships that can reconfigure while deployed is not currently feasible. So Valkyrie are an experiment to give Captains and crews more adjustable assets to help complete any mission in any situation they may face. If you think John was the driving force...then you must have missed the numerous times I mentioned "Talia and I keeping it in house" It seem obvious that Talia was a huge driving force and me wanting to accommodate her fun. You can suggest anything you would like Anja, it is not my call...maybe whoever is making the call may like your ideas and input. ~the demoness This argument doesn't affect me, but I do want to point out that the "canon" answer to versatility was the Delta Flyer. They designed and built a ship that was more durable than a shuttle, could withstand atmospheric pressure up to 10,000 kilometers (gas giant) and oceanic pressures up to 600 kilometers deep, and survived both an ion storm and a crash landing that left the Flyer buried 3 kilometers deep. What finally destroyed the first version was a Borg Tactical Cube firing at point blank range while the Flyer's shields were down. I dunno about everyone else, but I think I'd love to have some of those in my shuttlebay.
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