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Post by Lt Cmdr Trenchard on Jan 14, 2013 18:22:45 GMT -5
Honestly, I'd think it would be fine to just shift the job over to Operations and be done with it. Tactical on the TNG era shows fires all weapons, handles communication, handles shields, and often handles sensors. Operations doesn't do much aside from managing internal ship systems in TNG. There's getting things right down to every little detail and then there's getting things overall right, and then making changes for fun. Under normal ship scale work, Tactical and Helm are pretty much the only people doing anything, unless something goes wrong for Engineering to fix. Science gets to do things because we let them handle sensors now, even though that clearly wasn't how they handled it in TNG, so in my opinion, it would be just fine if Ops took over Deflectors and Communications (I think they usually handle that now, anyway). Even Talia falls into that trap of having tactical do most everything... To expands on Anja's point. The goal is to give everyone on the crew the best opportunity to interact and role play and do things. Making contrived situations for specific players to handle is not the long term solution, allowing them the freedom and opportunity to contribute and interact, is... Totally agree with this point. The rules, like those in the series, are built around getting everyone involved. Security/tac already has a huge number of starting points compared to other curricula, and a lot of other viable responsibilities without adding deflector control to their plate.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 18:49:17 GMT -5
in retrospect Erys may have a point. Less about the security/tactical position and more about the system in general. I just noted that the wiki states that the helm officer is responsible for all navigational tasks. 22ndmobile.wikia.com/wiki/Helm_OfficerYet is appears that the training for a helm officer includes nothing in astrogation. Which is ok if we want the ops officer to handle that but the job description in the wiki should reflect that.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 19:41:31 GMT -5
however having some officers untrained in essential job skills can present interesting RP situations:
Ops officer: -bleep bloop, presses buttons on console- Captain I have allocated additional power to the deflector array. Captain: Good. Security Officer: Captain I am recieving reports from sick bay heavy casualties on deck 13, someone shut off the life support! -random cut scene from deck 13, random red shirt shivering- Red Shirt: Why is it so damn cold in here? -back on the bridge- Captain: How the hell did that happen? -looks at the Ops officer- Ops Officer: -suveys console for a bit- whoops my bad. Captain: You do know how to do your job right. Ops Officer: --shrugs- Captain: Helm plot us a course back to starbase 12! Helm: -looking quite worried- I don't know how captain...they skip that part of our training due to budget cuts.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jan 14, 2013 19:55:34 GMT -5
As noted a skill of 20 or 30 is listed as qualified. It should be noted that what qualifies a junior officer straight out of the academy for thier job and what qualifies an officer for a department head position are going to be two different things. Those numbers cited would more or less be minimum numbers for new junior officers (before adding in any advanced training or numbers for years of experience.) Thus the numbers seem ok to me. They don't seem okay to me, and here's why. Security officers get around 40 in weapons by default. They get the same in unarmed combat, and marksmanship, and other skills they may or may not even use. Operations officers get at least 40 in communications, Helm officers get at least 40 in helm control and weapons (although most helm officers don't use weapons anymore, with the tactical officer being a separate position now), engineers will have 40 or higher in various engineering areas. Why? Because these officers are all professionals in their field. So why would a professional not have professional-level skill in an area he's supposed to be a professional at? "Qualified" means you can do it okay, but probably not gonna do very well in a high stress situation. 20 is basically a 20% chance to succeed, 80% chance to fail. Even "professional" isn't all that great, with only a 40% chance to succeed. But most of the fleet's tactical officers have put at least a few points into it, and still barely reach the professional level. And a "junior officer" should be expected to perform his own tasks at a professional level. Department heads are going to add in administration, leadership, etc., because they are now supervising a group. And they should be nearing the high end of the professional stage, if not "expert" stage, in various areas. P.S. Speaking of skills matching job functions, if the operations officer's job involves power allocation shouldn't they have 40 in Space Science (Astronautics) rather than astrogation. Afterall doesn't helm do navigation? Yes, they should. That's the overall point I was making, that roles now don't match what roles used to be, so training doesn't fit how it should. Also, I would like to clarify something. I'm not saying that Tactical/Security must handle shields in all situations. What I'm saying is that they are expected to be able to, and don't have the skill level that they should have. And by the same token, Operations officers should have the skills needed to transfer power, and helm officers should have navigation skills. There's other examples, and all of them should be fixed when/where possible. As you said, Cygnus. It's about giving players the freedom to roleplay their character. And how can I accurately portray a "modern" Tactical officer if I cannot perform at a professional level with all tactical-related systems? How can a flight control officer accurately portray his character if he cannot calculate a flight path at a professional level? etc.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 20:12:12 GMT -5
It should be noted this is inaccurate. First off based on your skill level many basic functions should not even require a skill level as your level gets higher more and more (and more complex) functions would no longer require a roll.
Second your skill level is only your base target as all skill rolls in the FASA system should have lots of modifiers. So it would not be accurate to say a skill of 20 only gives you a 20% chance of success. The GM would add mods to give you a chance of sucess that seem appropriate toward the level of difficulty compared to your level of skill.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jan 14, 2013 20:26:27 GMT -5
Erys, by playing and developing your charatcer. Again your GM is willing to work with you and make adjustments to a sheet...by taking points in skills that have have atrophied perhaps and adding to others that you used more now (without changing the overall total points).
Your argments lacks equity since it does not provide the same even handness to every role on a Star Ship or non commisioned officers either. I am not about to put forward a rework of the entire skill system. It has some flaws and gaps, but does the job required of it.
I am far more interested in development than what skills one started with, just like background for a charatcer is okish to me..I am far more concerned in current interaction and how a chartacer will grow...
~the demoness
P.S.
T'Pang's understanding of the skill system and levels is correct. Also failure is not "failed". Nahtan tried to overload a power conduit at another location down the hall with no real tools and just working form an open access panel. I took the average of his Electronic Technology and Damage Control skills...he rolled like a 60 something, so did not get the desirved effect of an overload, but the system did spark..causing 3 Romulan invaders to move from their location into an ambush set by the security team...
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jan 14, 2013 20:45:55 GMT -5
Erys, by playing and developing your charatcer. Again your GM is willing to work with you and make adjustments to a sheet...by taking points in skills that have have atrophied perhaps and adding to others that you used more now (without changing the overall total points). That shouldn't be necessary at all. I should not have to develop a skill that's supposed to be a requirement for every single officer of a specific department, just so I can be at a level that doesn't just about guarantee failure at every turn. Your argments lacks equity since it does not provide the same even handness to every role on a Star Ship or non commisioned officers either. I am not about to put forward a rework of the entire skill system. It has some flaws and gaps, but does the job required of it. First of all, I've already acknowledged that other positions need the same type of fix. So please don't accuse me of ignoring other departments in favor of one. Second, why continue to use a flawed system without even trying to fix it? I'm not asking for 100's in everything. I'm not even asking for a higher skill in an area we don't normally do work in. All I'm asking is that the GM's consider making a change that helps out the entire fleet. It's not just me, it's Malitzka, Aidan, Vorath, Talia, Asada... And other departments need the same type of help too. Whether they use the skill they're missing every day like we do or not, there's probably something they're missing. I am far more interested in development than what skills one started with, just like background for a charatcer is okish to me..I am far more concerned in current interaction and how a chartacer will grow... ~the demoness It's hard to have "current interraction" with any amount of accuracy if my character can't get the shields working, or T'ruri can't plot an emergency jump, or Nathan can't reroute power, all because the skill system missed a few points that we needed. Okay, so let's say that is true. The question remains: Why do helm officers receive a minimum of 40 in helm control, Doctors and engineers receive 40 or more in various fields, and security receives 40 in marksmanship, unarmed combat, and weapons, but not shields? If 20 or 30 is "good enough", then why bother making sure there's 40 in the things we're trained to do? My guess would be that Starfleet Officers are expected to perform specific tasks during high-stress situations. For tactical officers, that should include the shields. For helmsmen, that should include navigation. and so on, and so forth. Those skills are ones that should be there, not ones that should have to be developed after the fact, just to get to the same level. Having one required skillset without the other just doesn't make sense to me. Regardless. This doesn't change anything in the way of how most players would want to focus their characters' development. I doubt many people want to waste 20 or more points in whatever skill just because our outdated system doesn't give them credit for the training they should have received. Anyway, I'm just asking you to think about fixing a problem with our system. That's all.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jan 14, 2013 21:04:08 GMT -5
Ery's,
Ship shields by protocol go up on Yellow and Red Alerts, automatically...Deflector Ops is when your try to do something fancy or difficult...Deflector Tech is you trying to repair and physically modify..
Most players want a resonable chance at anything they try to do and in tasks they often get called on to do, I can apprecaite that..again I promote development and reasoned redistrution of skills.
Maybe Erys with all those elective points in Academy that you got..you did not think you needed to take extra courses in Deflector Operations, likely never saw the need beyond core competency or had the interest...where as ops training has a higher core competency requirement in Academy...
~the demoness
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 21:09:14 GMT -5
At a bear minimum we need to go through and make sure the job description for each position listed on the wiki actually matches the skills assigned during character creation. Example we can't say hey the helm handles all navigation and then assign zero points in astrogation to helm officers.
The job descriptions and the skill systems need to coincide otherwise its confusing.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jan 14, 2013 21:11:39 GMT -5
I'm not in charge of the descriptions or the wiki, so on that I cannot assist. I can appreciate some wishing that all the i's are dotted and t's cross and all the minute details match in every aspect, though that sort of thing is not for me...
~the demoness
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 21:13:36 GMT -5
I'm not in charge of the descriptions or the wiki, so on that I cannot assist. I know, but then again I don't think anyone is in charge of it. I just know I have no authority over it.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jan 14, 2013 21:48:25 GMT -5
I'm actually in the process of building "default" sheets for what departments I can (it's rather impossible with science, medical, or engineering, as the majority of those are "specialty" based anyway), without the electives or extra classes. Each department is basically the character defaults (core curriculum, etc), with the department school skills added in. No electives, no "choose your own" for the sciences, just the basic skills given to that particular department. So far, I have noticed the following: - Helm has a higher weapons score than tactical (Helm gets 40, Tactical gets 30) ---- this is most likely due to the fact that in the TOS days, helm officers controlled the ship's weapons. In "modern" times, helm officers generally fly the ship, and navigate. - Operations has a higher deflector shield operations score than tactical (operations gets 40, tactical gets 20) ---- Again, this is most likely due to the fact that in the TOS days, the Navigator handled shields. In "modern" times, the Operations officer focuses on the ship's overal activity (which may include shields), while the Tactical officer handles most of the offensive and defensive operations specifically. - Science gets a higher sensors skill than most (40 for science, whereas everyone else seems to get 20 total) ---- Again, in the TOS days, Science Officer Spock seemed to always be the one picking out stuff on the sensors. In "modern" times, it's usually the operations officer, although it can occasionally be a tactical or science officer (depending on what it is). - Whereas most groups get 40 in a couple skills, Medical gets 60 for one, 40 in others for General medicine (assuming that's 40 divided among other races). They also get a 40 in psychology for a race, with 40 more among others, with "other specialties" totalling 50. ---- Makes sense for the most part, although I'm not sure how well it actually works out. But then, I've never tried to make a doctor, so I can't and won't try to judge the medical department. - Engineering, in the end, has at least 3 skills that have at least 40 in three different skills (probably Technology skills), with 40 or more in damage control. This, of course, makes sense for engineers. However, they only get 10 in Astronautics, which apparently is the "general engineering" skill. - Science seems to have a slight advantage on computer operations (although this makes sense, for various reasons). Overall, most things seem to be fine. The only departments that seem to have shifted roles from TOS to TNG were Helm, Operations, and Tactical/Security. Those are the ones I mentioned earlier as needing to be fixed. As mentioned before, I'm not even asking for skills to be removed from other departments. But I do think the departments that are supposed to fill those roles (according to the descriptions listed on the forum), should have those skills. If we were to "fix" all of these issues, then: 1. Tactical/security should have deflector shields buffed by 20 points. 2. Tactical / security should have starship weapons buffed by 10 points. 3. Helm should have astrogation buffed by 40 points. 4. Operations should have sensors buffed by 20 points. 5. Engineering should have Astronautics buffed by 20 - 30 points. Those are the major role shifts that I see, and making those changes would fix most of the current problems I can see. I didn't see anything missing with medical or science, but that doesn't mean there isn't something missing from them. I'm not in charge of the descriptions or the wiki, so on that I cannot assist. I can appreciate some wishing that all the i's are dotted and t's cross and all the minute details match in every aspect, though that sort of thing is not for me... ~the demoness And honestly... nobody expects you or the GM staff to be perfect. Or at least, I don't. We all miss things, and make mistakes, and hopefully our friends and comrades will help us improve. That's why I make posts like this. I see an area that could be improved, and make what to me is a logical suggestion on how to improve it. I'm not trying to start arguments or make people angry, I'm just trying to make things work better.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Jan 14, 2013 22:11:09 GMT -5
- Science gets a higher sensors skill than most (40 for science, whereas everyone else seems to get 20 total) ---- Again, in the TOS days, Science Officer Spock seemed to always be the one picking out stuff on the sensors. In "modern" times, it's usually the operations officer, although it can occasionally be a tactical or science officer (depending on what it is). Just a little note regarding science officers, from a practical RP standpoint. The science officer description on the wiki has the science officer in charge of sensors, and for most RP situations that is about the only contribution the Science Officer gets to make. So if you turn that job over to Ops then the science officer become more or less useless. In some cases the jobs are devided the way they are (even against canon) i order to allow for each department to have at least some small piece of the action.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jan 14, 2013 22:12:02 GMT -5
Yeah..well take a look at Shantal's sheet...she is Damage Control Specialist thrown in as a Chief Engineer. I make due and just slowly develop her to fit the role required of her better as she uses the skills in events and other role playing.
Even if the core training is altered I am not retrofitting every charatcer on Adagio to match it...they are established charatcers, and many of them estabished prior to the skill system and had to go through the difficultly of being adapted to the skill system in the first place...
I knew the challaneges of the system and knew no one could agree on it perfectly to match everyone...thus it was important to put forward somthing to allow players the ability to forge their charatcers more to their liking and promote activity and our fleet role playing standard...
~the demoness
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Post by Kossuth on Jan 14, 2013 22:14:40 GMT -5
I'm not in charge of the descriptions or the wiki, so on that I cannot assist. I know, but then again I don't think anyone is in charge of it. I just know I have no authority over it. I'm technically in charge of the Wiki but I don't exercise any power over edits. We've had it for something like ten months so far and any disputes have been worked out between those involved without any kind of administrative intervention.
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