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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Feb 19, 2013 11:18:28 GMT -5
Just posting this for the benefit of whoever needs it.
Our Player Handbook contains something of an error in terms of time spent in training. It states that Starfleet Academy and training schools are two separate things. This is, in fact, an error, as evidenced by multiple things in Star Trek itself, and the military academies that SA is based on. Allow me to explain further.
Modern-Day military academies divide their 4-year training into two categories: Core and Branch
Core consists of the first two years, and contains all training necessary for everyone in Military service. Subjects like basic tactics, hand to hand combat, marksmanship, first aid, and basic skills in math, science, history, etc.
Branch is more in-depth training in the chosen field, whatever it may be, and consumes the remaining two years.
Starfleet Academy is the same, with Cadets spending the majority of their first two years learning the same things together. The remaining two years is spent in Branch training, with a few classes mixed, but the majority spent in whatever their field is.
Now, some branches may take longer (mostly just Medical), as there is more information to acquire. But generally speaking, entrance to commission takes four years.
Examples: Jean luc Picard - 2323-2327 (4 years, science or helm) William T. Riker - 2353-2357 (4 years, helm) Beverly Crusher - 2342-2350 (8 years, Medical, possibly a separate Medical Academy) Deanna Troi - 2355-2359 (4 years, counseling) Harry Kim - 2366-2370 (4 years, operations) Tuvok - 2289-2293 (joined at 25, 4 years, science. moved to tactical later) Benjamin Sisko - 2346-2350 (4 years, engineering)
Unless otherwise noted, all of the above entered the Academy at 18, and were commissioned as officers immediately following graduation, and were assigned without extra training.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 19, 2013 13:56:03 GMT -5
Just posting this for the benefit of whoever needs it. Our Player Handbook contains something of an error in terms of time spent in training. It states that Starfleet Academy and training schools are two separate things. This is, in fact, an error, as evidenced by multiple things in Star Trek itself, and the military academies that SA is based on. Allow me to explain further. Modern-Day military academies divide their 4-year training into two categories: Core and Branch Core consists of the first two years, and contains all training necessary for everyone in Military service. Subjects like basic tactics, hand to hand combat, marksmanship, first aid, and basic skills in math, science, history, etc. Branch is more in-depth training in the chosen field, whatever it may be, and consumes the remaining two years. Starfleet Academy is the same, with Cadets spending the majority of their first two years learning the same things together. The remaining two years is spent in Branch training, with a few classes mixed, but the majority spent in whatever their field is. Now, some branches may take longer (mostly just Medical), as there is more information to acquire. But generally speaking, entrance to commission takes four years. Examples: Jean luc Picard - 2323-2327 (4 years, science or helm) William T. Riker - 2353-2357 (4 years, helm) Beverly Crusher - 2342-2350 (8 years, Medical, possibly a separate Medical Academy) Deanna Troi - 2355-2359 (4 years, counseling) Harry Kim - 2366-2370 (4 years, operations) Tuvok - 2289-2293 (joined at 25, 4 years, science. moved to tactical later) Benjamin Sisko - 2346-2350 (4 years, engineering) Unless otherwise noted, all of the above entered the Academy at 18, and were commissioned as officers immediately following graduation, and were assigned without extra training. As a technical note modern day military academies don't have branches. They are more like regular universities in that they have majors and minors. After the first one or two years the student selects a major study area. example the Navy academy has 23 majors in 8 areas. www.howtogetin.com/colleges/united-states-naval-academy/majors.phpThe truth is most officer jobs in the military require much training post academy graduation. They often require the academy graduate to have majored in certain areas. In terms post academy training the reality is that most jobs would likely involve some form of post academy training, even if it be on the job training. For Science, Helm, medical, command, and engineering all seem like career fields that would require some degree of post academy training. In fact in the modern military such career fields do in fact require various levels of post academy training. But really no one has ever worked out a training timeline with respects to the academy and the various branch school so I would imagine that there is some latitude there in terms of time. Also as an interesting note Deanna Troi's bio on Startrek.com lists her education as four years of Starfleet Academy and "advanced studies on Betazed" what exactly that means is unclear.
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Post by Kossuth on Feb 19, 2013 15:52:04 GMT -5
Starfleet Academy has always been sort of a Macguffin. Nobody explains what exactly goes on there, other than extensive training in a number of fields to the point where Academy graduates are veritable experts on a variety of topics. I always assumed it was an extremely intensive four year program with majors and minors and core curriculum classes. That's how I treated it on Tiberius' character sheet.
My other character, Verion (who used to be the CMO of the Independence before I had to retire him to become a GM) went to medical school on Betazed before going into Starfleet Academy, so he had a few extra years in studying.
Personally, we should just define Starfleet Academy like it was college and redefine the rules accordingly.
Edit:
Are there other training facilities? It can't possibly be that Starfleet Academy is the ONLY place where officers are trained for Starfleet. Given the size of the fleet, it would be impossible to do this only in San Francisco.
I'd assume that education at the Vulcan Science Academy qualifies you for officer postings on Starfleet ships as well? I don't know.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 19, 2013 16:41:56 GMT -5
Starfleet Academy has always been sort of a Macguffin. Nobody explains what exactly goes on there, other than extensive training in a number of fields to the point where Academy graduates are veritable experts on a variety of topics. I always assumed it was an extremely intensive four year program with majors and minors and core curriculum classes. That's how I treated it on Tiberius' character sheet. My other character, Verion (who used to be the CMO of the Independence before I had to retire him to become a GM) went to medical school on Betazed before going into Starfleet Academy, so he had a few extra years in studying. Personally, we should just define Starfleet Academy like it was college and redefine the rules accordingly. Edit: Are there other training facilities? It can't possibly be that Starfleet Academy is the ONLY place where officers are trained for Starfleet. Given the size of the fleet, it would be impossible to do this only in San Francisco. I'd assume that education at the Vulcan Science Academy qualifies you for officer postings on Starfleet ships as well? I don't know. This quite true, at no time in any of the Star Trek shows do they define exactly what goes on there (SFA) beyond "I am a graduate of Starfleet Academy I know many things." One thing that has been fairly well defined is that it is a four year school and that after you graduate you are an officer in Starfleet. It has also been established that there are post graduate schools (like Starfleet Medical.) beyond that the details are sketchy. My personal favorite is how in the first season of TNG Geordi is assigned to Helm, then later he becomes the Chief Engineer with no indication he had anything more than four years at SFA. Now that is some seriously advanced 24th century education. The facts are that in the US military one can go to any university and then qualify to become an officer (after attending an officer training school.) or one can attend one of the military academies. There are even career paths for enlisted to apply to become officers. The character generation system we use is limited to Starfleet Academy. Although in the shows I don't recall any examples of alternate paths to becoming a Starfleet Officer. The skill system we use is limited and quite frankly it seems all the useful training occurs post SFA graduation. Starfleet Academy graduates don't seem all that usefu for much other than further training, which seems silly. Since in the shows they don't speak much about a lot of post graduate training for any of the characters. Plus it seems to assume that all characters of a particular branch have pretty much the same life story up until RP begins and no one ever seems to enter Starfleet Academy with any useful skills. I take it none of our characters were child prodigies, which is why they went into Starfleet they had no other career options.
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on Feb 19, 2013 17:17:44 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most officers have to attend Starfleet Academy for their primary officer education, but after that they have opportunities to move on to branch schools for more specific trainin (IE Science Officers can attend Vulcan Science Academy and Medical Officers can attend some sort of medical school).
I'd advise making a formal declaration about just how long the primary training that all officers must receive is (probably 2 or 3 years), and then using the already stated time lengths for branch schools to finish things up.
The system does also make it difficult to account for say an enlisted person being commissioned to officer or someone who is already established in some field deciding they'd like to join up (which is the sort of thing that honestly might well happen with all the conflicts going on in the Quadrant).
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Feb 19, 2013 17:45:29 GMT -5
*facepalms*
There's no reason to "guess" or assume, because it's stated very clearly in various episodes. As I posted above, it's very clear in several references that Starfleet Academy takes 4 years, and includes any branch training that's needed. The only exception to this are Science and Medical-related fields, which may take more time (see also: Beverly Crusher at 8 years).
T'pang, modern Officer schools are 4-year schools in total, with the divisions I mentioned above. They don't call it "Branch" training, but that's what it is: vocational-specific training that takes up the majority of the curriculum in the last two years. If we're going to "divide" up the Core and the Branch training, then the Core training would take roughly 2 years, with Branch training filling out the remaining 2. Medical and Science may or may not take longer, depending on the Officer.
Also, to put things in perspective for you, Enllisted training, from Boot Camp to the Vocational School, takes just over a year, if it even takes that. Boot Camp for most branches of service takes between 6 and 8 weeks. That's 2 months at the most. Vocational school takes between 9 weeks (3 months) to 12 weeks (4 months) depending on the branch and the vocation. Some fields may have longer vocational training (again, Medical and possibly science), but the majority of Enlisted personnel are ready to enter service after only 6 months. By comparison, Officers are in training for 4 years.
Keep in mind too, that military training is heavily accelerated. That 4-years of Officer school compresses the equivalent of a Masters Degree into that time. That's an extra 2 years' worth over most 4-year colleges (4 years for Bachelor's, another 2 for Masters, and another 4-6 for a Doctorate). So it's not unreasonable to assume that Starfleet Academy would be just as accelerated, and just as fast. Especially considering that the canon examples I listed coincide with what I've stated.
As for cases like Geordi and Tuvok, who seemed to switch careers, the answer is quite simple. Starfleet Officers are trained in a variety of roles (the reason that NPC rolls are generally assumed to have a skill of 40), and most likely have an area of interest that may or may not become realized.
For example, Picard stated that he had an interest in archaeology. In the episode where Q showed him how his life would have been without the artificial heart, Picard was a Lieutenant, JG science officer. However, with events as they turned out, he went to Helm instead, and eventually moved on to Command. But even with his life as it was, he still demonstrated that interest with archaeology, which in terms of our "system" would mean he probably had points there regardless.
Either way, this isn't a call for any changes to our skill system. This is simply a reference for people making their timeline, and the point is this: unless you're a science or medical officer, or have failed or otherwise been held back, an Officer will graduate within 4 years. Enlisted should take between 6 months and a year.
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on Feb 19, 2013 18:23:40 GMT -5
There's no reason to "guess" or assume, because it's stated very clearly in various episodes. As I posted above, it's very clear in several references that Starfleet Academy takes 4 years, and includes any branch training that's needed. The only exception to this are Science and Medical-related fields, which may take more time (see also: Beverly Crusher at 8 years). We already don't match that, Engineering takes one more year than the one and a half year curriculums and Science and Medical take a year past that. This is by the Player's Handbook, which conflicts with the information you've already provided. We could assume that the general curriculum takes two and a half years, which would make the majority of officers graduate at four years. The way the Player's Handbook is currently worded, though, it comes across as basic Academy curriculum takes 4 years, then you go on to Branch school for a minimum of 1.5 more.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 19, 2013 18:54:56 GMT -5
My point is that in reality, four year military colleges (Westpoint, Naval Academy, etc) are four year colleges similar to any four year college. You graduate with a bachelor degree. They cram more stuff in since they also have to teach all that military stuff on top of any academics, by having the students work longer hours and having them work through their summers as well.
While I would imagine that most entry level Starfleet jobs would be trained in those four years. Also I would imagine that, like the modern military many jobs would require additional training. Some good examples are the jobs of nuclear reactor engineer, doctor, pilot. All of which require special training beyond four years at the academy.
I would imagine that most Starfleet officer jobs would involve four years at the academy. Junior officers going into security, tactical, and helm would likely recieve all the training they need in thier four years at the academy. But I would imagine that they would also have additional training they could attend so they could get really good at thier jobs.
Science and technical fields would be more complicated. I would imagine that after four years that cadets would recieve enough training to be useful in many entry level science and technical jobs. For example Nursing is a four year degree, so it is concievable that many jobs are accessible after a four year degree.
On the other hand jobs like CMO or CSO, would require advanced degrees in medicine or science. If you think about the job of chief science officer, especially on a large exploration starship where you have a large science crew, including civilian specialists (likely scientists with doctorates). In essense a large laboratory, the typical requirement to be the head of such an operation is typically a doctorate. Although I would imagine that on small ships (especially combat ships) one would have less stringent requirements.
I don't advocate any changes to the skill system I merely point out that in some areas the timeline listed on the training skills page works (like medical and science) and for other career fields (especially helm, security, tac) it is off the mark.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Feb 19, 2013 18:55:09 GMT -5
That's why I started off by saying the Players Handbook is incorrect, Malitzka If you look at most Military Academies, they are similar to most 4-year colleges, in that the first couple years are fairly homogeneous among all students. I.E. Everyone studies the basics (for SFA, it would be things like math, science, language skills, diplomacy, etc), with one or two classes in their chosen field. As time progresses, they take more and more of these classes, until their third and fourth years are almost nothing but whatever that field is. For example, here's the Civil Engineering Major at West Point: ( full article) If I understand the Red Book correctly, the four years are referred to as "Fourth Class year" (freshman), "Third Class year" (sophomore), "Second Class year" (junior), and "First class year" (senior). You will note in the image above that there is only one class from the chosen field, and that is in the sophomore year. But by the senior year, it's nothing but whatever the chosen major is. So, if SFA does the same thing, then technically speaking, a 2.5-year time for Engineering would still work, assuming that the above is true for SFA as well. -edit- Reading your last post, T'pang, it looks like we actually agree for the most part. I would like to point out that at no point did I mention Department Head or Command schools as being "incorrect" (although I see no evidence of either in any of the shows), and there is evidence for the Advanced training in specific fields (like tactical, helm, Medical), but those aren't necessarily expected for a "fresh" ensign.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 19, 2013 19:12:16 GMT -5
Reading your last post, T'pang, it looks like we actually agree for the most part. I would like to point out that at no point did I mention Department Head or Command schools as being "incorrect" (although I see no evidence of either in any of the shows), and there is evidence for the Advanced training in specific fields (like tactical, helm, Medical), but those aren't necessarily expected for a "fresh" ensign. I agree I think we are more or less in agreement on this. I do want to point out that we shouldn't try and make player's character creation conform to a strict time line. There should be certain guidlines to help players work out thier character's history and then some lee way to allow for player creativity.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Feb 19, 2013 19:17:38 GMT -5
I couldn't force players into a strict timeline if I wanted to . Like I said, it's a reference. If someone wants to make their character take 6 years to get through the Academy, that's fine. But my character will probably want to know why they took an extra two years, when most non-medical people only take 4 years.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 19, 2013 19:35:12 GMT -5
I couldn't force players into a strict timeline if I wanted to . Like I said, it's a reference. If someone wants to make their character take 6 years to get through the Academy, that's fine. But my character will probably want to know why they took an extra two years, when most non-medical people only take 4 years. Presumably anything over four years would be post graduate training of some kind. I would imagine that no matter what you either graduate after four years and are commissioned as an ensign or you wash out. My point as to some leeway with respects to the time line was more along the lines that in the final analysis your character winds up with all these skills at various levels, where exactly along thier time line they earned these skill levels should be left a bit vague. Some things (like how long the academy is) would be set. Unless we allow for Kirk types doing it in three!
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on Feb 19, 2013 20:39:28 GMT -5
That's why I started off by saying the Players Handbook is incorrect, Malitzka My point is that we need to talk about whether or not to get that correct or whether or not it is the intention of the fleet to say that the first portion of Starfleet Academy, the general portion, actually takes four years. I, personally, might need to correct some dates depending on what I thought the intention is at the time of creation. So official question: does general officer training take 2.5 years or 4? (and this isn't a question you can answer, Erys)
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Post by Vice Admiral Brian Donaldson on Feb 19, 2013 21:18:42 GMT -5
When I was younger and watching the show/movies, I,always assumed starfleet academy was 4 years where an officer (not enlisted) learned the basics of performing as an officer aboard a starship. After graduation, I thought the officer joined a crew as a junior officer in their chosen branch and learned their field through on the job training and learning from their section leader or department head. With the exception being medical officers who spent more years in media school learning from doctors.
For enlisted, they just signed up and learned in the field by on the job training. The difference being they didn't receive the additional training starfleet academy gives officers.
As I recall, it was also stated somewhere that starfleet academy had many satellite schools across the federation all and accepted partial course credits from other accredited/preapproved academies like the Vulcan science academy.
It's also wortH noting that not all medical officer had to go through starfleet medical. Nurse ogawa was originally an ensign through much of tng and learned her field through training and working with dr crusher.
I think as an rp community we fail to acknowledge the evidence of on the job training on the shows... Characters taking years of field experience to become experts in their chosen fields and we instead rely on the fast track and easy explanation of branch schools and pre deployment training... Making everyone ready to be a department head after a few weeks of rl rp experience.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on Feb 20, 2013 0:23:32 GMT -5
When I was younger and watching the show/movies, I,always assumed starfleet academy was 4 years where an officer (not enlisted) learned the basics of performing as an officer aboard a starship. After graduation, I thought the officer joined a crew as a junior officer in their chosen branch and learned their field through on the job training and learning from their section leader or department head. With the exception being medical officers who spent more years in media school learning from doctors. For enlisted, they just signed up and learned in the field by on the job training. The difference being they didn't receive the additional training starfleet academy gives officers. As I recall, it was also stated somewhere that starfleet academy had many satellite schools across the federation all and accepted partial course credits from other accredited/preapproved academies like the Vulcan science academy. It's also wortH noting that not all medical officer had to go through starfleet medical. Nurse ogawa was originally an ensign through much of tng and learned her field through training and working with dr crusher. I think as an rp community we fail to acknowledge the evidence of on the job training on the shows... Characters taking years of field experience to become experts in their chosen fields and we instead rely on the fast track and easy explanation of branch schools and pre deployment training... Making everyone ready to be a department head after a few weeks of rl rp experience. On the job training is important in any career field. It isn't so much that we fail to acknowledge anything, we simply don't have time for it. Even in the real world every field relies on schools and pre deployment training to get people up to speed to be ready to come in and do a job. In the real world that job wouldn't be as a supervisor or even as an expert in thier field straight away. In reality that would take years of on the job experience. But with our lack of people and only one session a week we need to expedite things. Sort of like that 2009 Star Trek, were Kirk goes from Cadet to Captain in the course of one adventure. One note on Nurse Ogawa. Nursing programs are typically four years, so it seems likely that Starfleet Nursing would be four year program with the cadet graduating as an ensign. Like many nursing programs there would be a general education part at Starfleet Academy and the actual nursing part of the training would be done at Starfleet medical.
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