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Post by Vice Admiral Brian Donaldson on May 26, 2013 7:02:36 GMT -5
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Post by Vice Admiral Brian Donaldson on May 27, 2013 12:44:06 GMT -5
This things got like 40 views so far and noones said anything about it. What do you guys think? Good, bad, totally dumb, kickass awesome, what? Lol
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on May 27, 2013 13:16:00 GMT -5
My opinion is that they work as logos, but I haven't commented because these existing or not has not effect on me as a regular member of the fleet. I will possibly see these on messages in the forum, but that's it. We have no way of getting the fleet logo to actually appear in the game, and I personally am not involved in creating out of game graphical stuff.
I do note that I think having the command symbol on the fleet logo instead of the fleet commander logo doesn't make sense. The fleet itself is composed of a lot of people from different branches, the fleet commander is the peak of command.
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Post by Vice Admiral Brian Donaldson on May 27, 2013 14:24:36 GMT -5
-nods-
Understood, it's all good.
My reasoning for the command star in the fleet logo and the Starfleet command star in the fleet commander's seal was this...
The fleet commander and his four operational directors are all admirals and make up the organization we call "22nd mobile fleet command", they all hold the rank of admirals, and belong to the command division of Starfleet. Hence why the command star in present in all 5 of their seals... Separating the phrases "22nd Mobile Fleet Command" and "Office of the ......". Each seal has a swoosh beginning with the symbol of the division to which they command. StratOps-tactical/security, Science-science, and so on. I used the same star from the Starfleet Command seal for the Fleet Commander's for the symbolism it associates... Fleet commander/Starfleet command.
I used the command star for the fleet's overall logo, mainly because I couldn't think of anything else to use. All of the operational director's seals use their various divisional symbols and to reuse any of those wouldn't be creative. I definitely didn't want to use the command star twice in the fleet commander's seal, so I was left with just the general fleet logo.
I'm more then open to suggestions if you guys have any. ;D
----------------
Something of note...
The 22nd Mobile is primarily a forward-deployed rapid response tactical force. I could use the same tactical symbol used in the StratOps Director's seal, but again I didn't want to repeat anything in any of the logos like that.
Though I could take away the swoosh altogether from the fleet logo and just use the Starfleet arrow head and omega symbol.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on May 27, 2013 20:03:53 GMT -5
As far as the look of the seals: I think they look slick and well made. I do agree with Anja in that the seal of the fleet commander should probably have the command star. But other than that I like them.
Anja does raise another valid point about how little all this matters to the typical fleet member. While ICly it may be the story that these fleet command members are running the fleet, OOCly they serve no purpose what-so-ever. OOCly the GMs are in charge and make all the choices, behind closed doors even - Which I have never been a fan of, even the lowest player I feel has the right to see the decision process and to voice there opinion about it - but that is my opinion and is of little value.
My experience looking at posting on the forums is that ICly the GMs make little use of the "fleet command" and most IC orders and communications seem to come from sources outside the fleet. I can't blame them since fleet command has never been fully fleshed out and thus it is hard to have messages coming from nameless faceless people. As far as fleshing out the fleet command there are two routes:
1) use player character admirals. This option is problematic for two reasons. a) There is literally nothing for these players to do IC other than an occasional cameo during weekly events and posting forum messages. Look at the members of the command staff that have been filled with PCs, what regular RP do they get to engage in, that is right none. b) Having a PC command staff would create conflict with the GMs, who are now in charge of the missions that the crews engage in. The more of that authority we assign to a panel of PC admirals, the more conflict will arise between the groups.
2) use non-player character admirals. This option does address the problems with using PC admirals, in that GMs could use the NPC admirals in their RP as they see fit to introduce missions and other such utility functions. The down side is of course that you do not have one players performing the functions of that particular command staff person. This in of itself can lead to conflicts and contradictions.
To sum this up, while the seals are lovely, overall wrt the fleet they currently serve little purpose since the nature and role of "fleet command" has never been established. Currently fleet command is a nebulous concept that we all just assume is there and really have little defined function within the fleet (either ICly of OOCly.)
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on May 27, 2013 20:33:35 GMT -5
Well, DGM Kossuth does have a player Admiral in the fleet, Rear Admiral Arak Verdaan. Most of the times I've seen Kossuth issue orders, it's been through Verdaan.
Right now, two of our fleet leadership positions are already filled by GM's, with a third filled by someone who is not a GM. There are, of course, two other "spots" open, Strategic Operations (security / tactical) and Medical. Assuming the GM's and FleetCom agree to it, those spots could be filled either by existing GM's or by players who have shown the capacity for leadership.
As for the new seals, I haven't commented until now because I have no real opinion on them either way.
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Post by Vice Admiral Brian Donaldson on May 27, 2013 20:41:23 GMT -5
Nyoko had planned to change this whole setup of the gms controlling the ic direction of the fleet. She wanted to put the gms as the controllers of the ooc aspects of the group, and the creators of outside galactic stimuli and events that the fleet would react to icly. She wanted the entire ic aspect of the fleet to be desided by player characters and the fleet controlled by an admin rp group who would meet and discuss missions and the fleet's reaction to galactic events icly... The gms would have no say in that and only provide stimuli and let the players decide things.
So, for example... If dgm Johndoe had an idea for a mission involving a romulani terrorist organization, he could create an ic report from an npc captain to Starfleet command explaining how his ship was attacked, crippled, and some of his crew taken hostage. Starfleet command would then send orders to the 22nd mobile to investigate, assist The disabled ship, rescue the hostages, and neutralize the threat. Admiral Donaldson and his four operational directors would meet, discuss the situation, plan it, and send in what ever forces they decide icly... Say the uss sentinel. The sentinel will then receive their orders through their task force commander (an npc controlled by their gm) and proceed to the mission and rp it when they get the chance oocly and after their gm has sufficient time to set it up and plan the story.
Problem is, nyoko never got around to implementing it and rl got in the way. But, we currently have three of the five 22nd command offices filled, rear admiral Miranda Kalavek (engineering), rear admiral arak verdan (science)' and rear admiral Donaldson (fleet commander). That leaves stratops and medical to be filled with player characters and plans are In the work to fill them.
I don't think we'll ever get to the point nyoko wanted with the gms leaving ic decisions to player characters, but I'm hoping we can get close to it. When I post the new roster for the entire 22nd mobile (including all the npc ships that operate under the fleets authority), all of the ships will be organized into 10 task forces, these task forces will be commanded by task forces commanders (either player characters or npcs), each task force commander is under the command of one of the 4 operational directors, each of those answer to the fleet commander who oversees it all. Gms can assume the persona of any non player character in the Starfleet command structure ( fleet admiral Quinn, one of the quadrant commanders, one of the theater commanders, one of the 22nd mobile's deputy directors, an advisor, a news reporter, an intelligence agent... Whatever) but the ic decisions of who goes where, who gets what, how we respond, who gets rewarded or punished, all gets decided through ic rp by player controlled characters.
High hopes.
Sorry for the long rant, but you guys asked for it by bringing g up the subject. Lol.
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Post by Admiral Marzz Razzor on May 27, 2013 21:06:59 GMT -5
Welcome to the fleet were after a long day at work you get to log in and attend fleet board meetings and staffing briefings, and then you might get to RP something fun. Unless your twisted enough to find this Kind of Politicking RP fun just so everyone can agree what way to turn the next screw. Hay this sounds like EvE.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on May 27, 2013 21:24:51 GMT -5
Sorry for the long rant, but you guys asked for it by bringing g up the subject. Lol. Yes I did ask for it So thank you for the lengthy response. I do understand what it was that Nyoko was intending, as you told me about it at one point months ago. As I see it said plan serve one purpose: To further consolidate fleet control at the top`, giving authority to as few persons as possible. The way I see it there are two options, either the GMs have control over their respective ships or that control is taken away and given to a panel of IC admirals, which more than likely will be GM alts anyway (making them NPCs) Either way the two problems with having PC admirals I brought up still stands. While I do see a need for an OOC fleet leadership, with specific fleet jobs designated to them. I am uncertain I see any need for an IC fleet leadership beyond a few NPC admirals. I don't see any real interesting RP opportunities for PC admirals, plus the probability of interpersonal conflict is real and likely.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on May 27, 2013 21:34:53 GMT -5
As far as the look of the seals: I think they look slick and well made. I do agree with Anja in that the seal of the fleet commander should probably have the command star. But other than that I like them. Anja does raise another valid point about how little all this matters to the typical fleet member. While ICly it may be the story that these fleet command members are running the fleet, OOCly they serve no purpose what-so-ever. OOCly the GMs are in charge and make all the choices, behind closed doors even - Which I have never been a fan of, even the lowest player I feel has the right to see the decision process and to voice there opinion about it - but that is my opinion and is of little value. My experience looking at posting on the forums is that ICly the GMs make little use of the "fleet command" and most IC orders and communications seem to come from sources outside the fleet. I can't blame them since fleet command has never been fully fleshed out and thus it is hard to have messages coming from nameless faceless people. As far as fleshing out the fleet command there are two routes: 1) use player character admirals. This option is problematic for two reasons. a) There is literally nothing for these players to do IC other than an occasional cameo during weekly events and posting forum messages. Look at the members of the command staff that have been filled with PCs, what regular RP do they get to engage in, that is right none. b) Having a PC command staff would create conflict with the GMs, who are now in charge of the missions that the crews engage in. The more of that authority we assign to a panel of PC admirals, the more conflict will arise between the groups. 2) use non-player character admirals. This option does address the problems with using PC admirals, in that GMs could use the NPC admirals in their RP as they see fit to introduce missions and other such utility functions. The down side is of course that you do not have one players performing the functions of that particular command staff person. This in of itself can lead to conflicts and contradictions. To sum this up, while the seals are lovely, overall wrt the fleet they currently serve little purpose since the nature and role of "fleet command" has never been established. Currently fleet command is a nebulous concept that we all just assume is there and really have little defined function within the fleet (either ICly of OOCly.) Since the can of worms is open. By the way Brian, Nyoko can speak for herself and hardly needs you as an advocate to state what you believe she wants. As for my demonic view on this: 1) The core of our experience that we deliver and game master is ship based weekly events, period. Everything else becomes secondary. 2) Out of character issues to be dealt with are constant. People not attending, issues that happen in events, game go down for maintenance, to the endless list of shit that comes up. I as the game master am forced to contend with this and in order to do so effectively, I need the authority to make adjusts and decisions I see fit to make the events work and make the story flow properly. 3) In character 'fleet leadership' has never been consistently present and that remains true to this day. How am I supposed to develop story and content around players that are occasionally present? When they approach me...and in order to gain the demoness' cooperation, there must be mutual respect. For many months, we have had only two ships running regular weekly events. My focus is on keeping Adagio running no matter what and providing the best experience I can for my players, and trying to recruit more players to the fleet. If people are unhappy with me or things I do, I expect them to politely approach me to try and work it out. If someone wants to step up and be Adagio's game master and the Adagio players want that, then I'll step down. ~the demoness
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Post by Captain T'Pang on May 27, 2013 22:03:29 GMT -5
Like I stated I don't see how implementing an idea that takes authority away from the GMs can not result in a lot of interpersonal drama. There are certain authorities the GMs expect to have and many of these authorities are vital toward them doing a good job. Also (it has to be said) there are too many big egos involved.
This is one major issue in this fleet no one is granted any real authority in this fleet to get anything done, so as a result nothing gets done. I mean that on a fleet wide basis, since obviously some ship's are plugging along ok, so something must be getting done in isolated pockets.
Right now the current format we are using has had limited success, in that only about half the current ships are active more than part time.
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Post by quinn6352 on May 27, 2013 23:00:59 GMT -5
i really dont want this to degrade into an argument over philosophy.
We are all here to RP in character, to play the roles of our characters in stories designed and supervised by Game Masters. My character is an Admiral, Commander of a fleet of Starships. I want to RP my character doing what he's supposed to be doing. Some players want to do that too.
Right now we have a setup where the GMs have full control over the direction and actions this fleet takes ICly. Things on the fleet-wide level are decided OOCly and rp currenly plays little to no part in that. GMs focus on their small corner of the community and let OOC dictate IC actions and responses far too often (in my opinion), the Fleet has little cohesion, almost no espirit de corps, and all this is seriously troubling to me.
I believe it can be fixed. More IC RP, less OOC. Active Recruitment, more rp on public stations and in local chat (to increase our visibility), IC Fleet Admin decided ICly through RP with the entire fleet as a whole as their focus (not just one small group), and opening ourselves up to letting IC decide what happens ICly and letting go of this need to have our OOC wants and desires affect how the RP is decided and progresses... sometimes the most rewarding RP experiences happen when you release yourself from your OOC perspective and see things purely from your character's eyes, ears, and thoughts... doing things only because thats what your character would do or how he/she/it would react, not how you would.
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Post by Captain T'Pang on May 27, 2013 23:18:35 GMT -5
i really dont want this to degrade into an argument over philosophy. We are all here to RP in character, to play the roles of our characters in stories designed and supervised by Game Masters. My character is an Admiral, Commander of a fleet of Starships. I want to RP my character doing what he's supposed to be doing. Some players want to do that too. Right now we have a setup where the GMs have full control over the direction and actions this fleet takes ICly. Things on the fleet-wide level are decided OOCly and rp currenly plays little to no part in that. GMs focus on their small corner of the community and let OOC dictate IC actions and responses far too often (in my opinion), the Fleet has little cohesion, almost no espirit de corps, and all this is seriously troubling to me. I believe it can be fixed. More IC RP, less OOC. Active Recruitment, more rp on public stations and in local chat (to increase our visibility), IC Fleet Admin decided ICly through RP with the entire fleet as a whole as their focus (not just one small group), and opening ourselves up to letting IC decide what happens ICly and letting go of this need to have our OOC wants and desires affect how the RP is decided and progresses... sometimes the most rewarding RP experiences happen when you release yourself from your OOC perspective and see things purely from your character's eyes, ears, and thoughts... doing things only because thats what your character would do or how he/she/it would react, not how you would. This sounds nice on the surface, until you realize what it means in practice. You wind up RPing bureaucracy. Nothing sounds more boring. We really don't have the time or the people to play out every detail of the fleet ICly, some things are by necessity going to have to be left OOC or perhaps better stated as behind the scenes. Besides I have no problem with my OOC wants and desires directing the IC direction of the fleet. I would prefer to stop merely reacting to generic situations created by others and have a more active roll in the course of my character's story. But that is just me.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on May 27, 2013 23:51:18 GMT -5
I certainly have no mindset or patience for bureaucracy either.
T'pang, you do have a large voice about your character's role playing and involvement, on the ships it is largely via the events, game master and Captain, as it translates to the fleet overall...Generally the ship game masters honor each others content and by default honor what the players have done. The knowledge varies as does to what extent we recognize such things. If you'd like to see certain character development opportunities or certain content, then I recommend discussing it with your game master to see what can be done.
Your voice in out of character fleet issues is stronger than you think. You are listened to as are all players, but ideas have to have some form of overall consensus, from both the players and the game masters. If enough people are in support of something, it get looked at on how it can be implemented or addressed in some manner.
Nyoko placed Talia in charge in her absence and Talia intends to keep the best of what makes our role playing experience fun and special, intact and build upon it. She is currently the final word on issues and disputes. She and all of us are always open to discussion of new ideas, but let's trying to avoid the radical immediate changes that breaks everything...
~the demoness
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Post by Captain T'Pang on May 28, 2013 0:38:05 GMT -5
I certainly have no mindset or patience for bureaucracy either. T'pang, you do have a large voice about your character's role playing and involvement, on the ships it is largely via the events, game master and Captain, as it translates to the fleet overall...Generally the ship game masters honor each others content and by default honor what the players have done. The knowledge varies as does to what extent we recognize such things. If you'd like to see certain character development opportunities or certain content, then I recommend discussing it with your game master to see what can be done. Your voice in out of character fleet issues is stronger than you think. You are listened to as are all players, but ideas have to have some form of overall consensus, from both the players and the game masters. If enough people are in support of something, it get looked at on how it can be implemented or addressed in some manner. Nyoko placed Talia in charge in her absence and Talia intends to keep the best of what makes our role playing experience fun and special, intact and build upon it. She is currently the final word on issues and disputes. She and all of us are always open to discussion of new ideas, but let's trying to avoid the radical immediate changes that breaks everything... ~the demoness The Endeavour is dead in the water, so that gives me exactly zero say in the direction of my character's RP. I can exert as much effort as I want and discuss the matter all I want with Koss, the RPis still going to go in the same direction,,, nowhere. As a player I have zero authority to change that. Sure GMs from other ships might honor what is done on other ships, in that they don't contradict it. Still what has occurred regarding individual character rarely has any impact on other ships. While I feel Talia is about the best possible candidate for fleet leader as anyone, it occurs to me that at no point was the general fleet membership told about such changes. It occurs to me that such information would be important for fleet members to know. While I realize that for the ships that are working ok maintaining the status quo might be very appealing, but that status quo is barely working at 50% (if even that) so some radical changes might be in order.
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