|
Post by Ensign Lindsey Wellington on Aug 4, 2016 9:35:08 GMT -5
Hy,
first of all, i do not want to complain about anything. I just think it is probably better to open a thread to talk about this then to spam the shoutbox with 4 or 5 people talking about the topic.
What this about?
Ensign Sebetharen Adryan started a diskussion over mathematics in your (our?) current Charactersheet System. As a Starfleet officer there should be a higher knowledge of mathematics in general. So far for what she means as i understood it. (if i am not entirly correct on the understanding of your current problem with the System, please correct me so other can know, too)
I also think that the current system may have a problem on the mathematics, but i understand why it is how it is... i think. We start with our three Pointpools in Body/Mind/Agility, but only mind gives the number of skills you can choose for your PA Education or your personal Education. Then you choose your Careerpath and Traits in Starfleet and that gives a fix amount of skillpoints your get for your skills (like Math skills for example). In my Case i took the Security Officer as a Starting Profession. Development in other branches can come threw RP i think (Like Tom Paris as example that has to help out as a Nurse in the Med Bay, during the start of Voyager), and through that i also learn how to rp this stuff, as Star Trek RP is still new to me.
The Security Officer is not the best in Mathematic Skills as this is not his job in Starfleet. But that doesn't mean has no knowledge on the RP Part. In other Pen and Paper Systems this would be controlled threw your attributes like Intelligence or something like that. We have Body/Mind/Agility as only Attributes behind the system. And only Mind gives you the Number of skills you can choose as said before. So no Skill Physical Sciences (Mathamatics) for me, as the Skills i choose should work with the Background of my Char. Lindsey did not cool off her Irish Attitute threw Mathematics, she ran...and she did that often. So she got better with Agility in my eyes and also got the Sport Skill for that.
But about what are we talking here? Physical Sciences. In my eyes the Starfleet would train Mathematical techniques to calculate something even if the Systems of the ship are disabled. So you get the formulas and Calculation sheets to calculate for example the flightpath of a balistic.
So what happens then in Praxis, can that dude, that does not have the skill, calculate something like that? I think yes, but not without help. He would need someone that has learned said formulas and Caclulation Sheets to get started. He needs to know what Variables are needed to calculate something like that (Heigh of the Target, Distance, Direction, maybe wind if the ballistic is shot from a planet, natural magneticfield of said planet, the power that the turret releases to shoot the ballistic and the weight of the ballistic of course). Given that knowledge and the Formula even an Ape could probably calculate the outcome. The less knowledge and training in mathematics someone has, the longer the calculation would need of course. But is it possible? Yes.
We should not forget we are talking about a skill that includes mathematical science. It does not mean the groundprinciples of math. Substraction,Addition, multiplication, Division and stuff like that are teached in regular School system that someone that comes from earth has or should have learned. It only takes some time to remember, how long depends on the training of thoose methods for the individual. So it should not be easy, but possible.
Ok, thats my two cents on the topic. GMs can crush it, or maybe tell us how they work with problems like that. I am sure there is some experience there. Thx!
|
|
|
Post by Kossuth on Aug 4, 2016 10:10:10 GMT -5
We should not forget we are talking about a skill that includes mathematical science. It does not mean the groundprinciples of math. Substraction,Addition, multiplication, Division and stuff like that are teached in regular School system that someone that comes from earth has or should have learned. It only takes some time to remember, how long depends on the training of thoose methods for the individual. So it should not be easy, but possible. I agree 100%. A score of '0' on your character sheet just means "Untrained" -- or in other words, you never got any training from Starfleet in that discipline. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are totally ignorant in that field. It's not like a character with 0 Mathematics is going to choke on 2+2.
|
|
|
Post by DGM Soft Kitty on Aug 4, 2016 10:57:11 GMT -5
What is often forgotten by some players is that skills are not just based on skill levels A roll is often combined with the attribute it is associated with. SO basically just because you have a math of 0 you dont have a 0 in your Mind attribute Again common sense assures us that a officer or enlisted can handle 2+2 but the mind att can be used to help figure out even if unskilled. A low enough roll can even produce a miracle roll. (i.e. Doctor Spencer's mind blowing one punch take down recently of a poor infiltrator agent who never saw her as a threat. My advice honey is to wait and see the current system in action live during and event and see how it is more of a augment to the role play and a safe guard against possible god modding We are not again slaves to the system when it comes to stories. The current crop of DGM's have been at this for years and the system while may appear broken actually is hardly a hindrance and works fairly well for us. The Math skill that is listed is not basic class on math it is more of a focused study of mathematics. I think you are trying to over complicate and worry about a system that is kept fairly simple because the rules and the skills are merely a basis to an outline to springboard creative and imaginary rp from. If a new player is expecting a step by step rule based rp format...then that new player is in for a bit of shock come their first event with us. Just some experienced advice. The ships and the characters are all mostly rp and story driven when it comes to role play. Also to everyone, as a usual heads up for such threads, the previous fleet leader often found it necessary to lock them if discussions got to heated or unnecessary drama erupted for them. Please while i love a good debate let's not do this here. Not saying it will, just such threads have a horrid history here over the last 5 years So kitty general plea..Please play nice Added after since i just caught this " =Kitty Ok, thats my two cents on the topic. GMs can crush it, or maybe tell us how they work with problems like that. I am sure there is some experience there. Thx! I think by now most of our player base understands how the events run and how experience applies. I also think the players here will tell you that the DGM's dont crush anything as the are players in the fleet themselves. We tend to be quite reachable for complaints or questions and there is no real separation between the core of the fleet and a leadership officer 'class' so to speak. The leadership really mostly meets to plan joint story arcs for all three ships and in dire cases of a player causing havoc with other players...deal with that player. Something that hasnt happened now for some time thankfully. So really there is no crushing such a discussion, unless it gets out of hand between the players. As for telling folks I think you just saw the first two to respond to your thread are dgms So there is little issue there as well. I think as you spend more time with us you are gonna find we are very comfy in responding to any question a player has - Edited Kitty
|
|
|
Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Aug 4, 2016 11:33:55 GMT -5
I think it is important to remember the difference between being a mathematician and being able to do math. It would be similar to the difference between being able to speak a language(s) and being a linguist. A person able to read a language could attempt to read and write that language and even translate to and from any other language they are familiar with. A linguist would have the tools necessary to try and decipher a never before encountered language. A mathematician could in the same way be able to invent and interpret new branches of mathematics. They would also be able to deal with even more abstract branches of mathematics that have no known practical application.
Also it should be noted that mathematics is key to cryptography. There is no code breaking skill in our skill system. So it seems likely that mathematics would be a likely substitute.
|
|
|
Post by Lt Cmdr Jonathan Cameron on Aug 4, 2016 11:47:30 GMT -5
As everyone has so eloquently put, our skill system is a guide for GMs. It is not the rule of law.
|
|
|
Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Aug 4, 2016 11:57:46 GMT -5
Right Jon. And the reality is we don't really use most of them anyway. Within each crew position there are a small hand full of skills that get used with any frequency and to be honest science skills are almost never used (I mean used in the sense that they are rolled against.) An example is the fact that T'Pang has an 80 in physics, but I have never been asked to make a roll against that skill. It doesn't really fall into a category of things that GM typically call for a roll over. A science officer could basically get by with a good score in Computers and Starship Sensors. Most of these unused skills are mostly there for character flavoring (it makes them more salty.)
|
|
Ensign Sebetharen Adryan
Unassigned Officers
Delta Operations Team Leader
Application of skill determines worth, and karma.
Posts: 1,233
|
Post by Ensign Sebetharen Adryan on Aug 4, 2016 12:26:17 GMT -5
It's good to have discussions like this because it clears up this kind of confusion and I enjoy controlled debate on occasion. I need to review the sheets because it's been some time since I have. However, in response to Koss's statement that a 0 means Starfleet didn't train you is only half right. The initial part in skill chargen is for things learned prior to 18 (stated in the first post of this thread describing Section 4: Pre-Academy skills (http://daedalusomega.proboards.com/thread/429)).
Now Billie's miracle punch made sense. A person doesn't need training for something that is intuitive like self defense to attempt to perform it. You can perform an action like a really crappy punch and get lucky by where the punch lands. Math's not really intuitive, though. You can't never learn calculus and get lucky and have a sudden understanding of it, which is sort of where the system falls short. I originally made the comment where characters lacked math but had other science skills is because the existence of those skills without math simply seemed ludicrous. And in my usual flavor of being bored, I mentioned it.
In the end, no. The bottom line is really the DGMs discretion and how we run it in spite of the oddities that the sheets have. The sheets are not perfect, and sometimes logic is eschewed for simplicity when games are created.
Edit: And Billie's right. There are a lot of skills that don't get used. Mostly because they tie in to other skills and instead of rolling a bunch of single skills you'll roll one general skill. Which is why I wondered why Math was a skill at all. Not to say that a DGM won't throw that in there at some point, as we currently have used the skill system they really have no bearing on actions performed during events.
|
|
|
Post by Kossuth on Aug 4, 2016 13:17:44 GMT -5
Right Jon. And the reality is we don't really use most of them anyway. Within each crew position there are a small hand full of skills that get used with any frequency and to be honest science skills are almost never used (I mean used in the sense that they are rolled against.) An example is the fact that T'Pang has an 80 in physics, but I have never been asked to make a roll against that skill. It doesn't really fall into a category of things that GM typically call for a roll over. A science officer could basically get by with a good score in Computers and Starship Sensors. Most of these unused skills are mostly there for character flavoring (it makes them more salty.) The way I do it is that scanning with the ship's sensors is Starship Sensors (obviously), interpreting complicated data is the individual science skill, and using a tricorder is the individual science skill.
|
|
Ensign Sebetharen Adryan
Unassigned Officers
Delta Operations Team Leader
Application of skill determines worth, and karma.
Posts: 1,233
|
Post by Ensign Sebetharen Adryan on Aug 4, 2016 13:34:32 GMT -5
I thought scanning with the ships sensors used the Ship Weapons skill, Koss. Although I think my point was once again misinterpreted. in order to do a myriad of things, not only basic but advanced mathematics is necessary, even for tactical officers. In TNG, 10 year olds were learning calculus in preparation to one day join Starfleet as officers. Engineering requires a very thorough study of math, because everything they do is based on it. To have no points in it, whether the foundation is understood or not, then have 80 points in an engineering skill is simply impossible. It's a skill that exists for no reason because no other skill requires it as a prerequisite to even have (Since it existence should certainly be FOR prerequisites). No one is going to ever roll a mathematician or teacher on our current ships, and any need of one would likely be DGM controlled to fit the situation they are needed, thus negating the need to ever be one. Not to mention.. who'd want to? It's hard enough to player a lawyer/diplomat and that has a fun premise. Imagine... MATH. This wasn't supposed to draw the way we do things into question. The way we do stuff is fine, it works.
|
|
DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
|
Post by DGM Cygnus on Aug 4, 2016 14:00:58 GMT -5
Seb's point is valid.
I tend to force a complementary math skill on characters based on their overall skill set. Physics, Astrogation, Chemistry, etc all have a foundation in math and need to have a math skill in the ball park. I have not evaluated new character sheets yet, but will eventually.
I also use skill synergies when applicable. Math could be used as a bonus if lower or as and average if substantially higher than the attempted skill skill check, for instance. Xaelei on the Tigershark is trying to plot course based on current battle damage and best possible speed to try a sling shot maneuver around a black hole to shake pursuit. Xaelei's Astrogation = 80 and Mathematics = 85 (the syngery in this case acts as a bonus and in this case negates a general "hard" skill check modified of -20 skill with is own +20 bonus...making it is even roll). Based on the results, Jon at the helm would get a bonus or penalty in trying to execute the maneuver.
|
|
|
Post by Ensign Lindsey Wellington on Aug 4, 2016 14:04:25 GMT -5
Just to clear things up a litte as it also might be misinterpreted with my points:
@ Kitty: I meant that GM can crush it, more as joke. I did not know the history, and that this could not be understood as a joke. So everything is fine there, Kitty.Also i did not expect a system where you have to roll for every move you do. So i am good with Storybased rp, also. (Acutally thats what i want). I wanted to take the discussion out of the shoutbox and into the forum, so that a GM can clear out what was not clear and i found the Topic to complex to talk about it over the shoutbox. So the thread was not to create drama, it was to give more space to talk about it.
|
|
|
Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Aug 4, 2016 14:22:50 GMT -5
I thought scanning with the ships sensors used the Ship Weapons skill, Koss. Although I think my point was once again misinterpreted. in order to do a myriad of things, not only basic but advanced mathematics is necessary, even for tactical officers. In TNG, 10 year olds were learning calculus in preparation to one day join Starfleet as officers. Engineering requires a very thorough study of math, because everything they do is based on it. To have no points in it, whether the foundation is understood or not, then have 80 points in an engineering skill is simply impossible. It's a skill that exists for no reason because no other skill requires it as a prerequisite to even have (Since it existence should certainly be FOR prerequisites). No one is going to ever roll a mathematician or teacher on our current ships, and any need of one would likely be DGM controlled to fit the situation they are needed, thus negating the need to ever be one. Not to mention.. who'd want to? It's hard enough to player a lawyer/diplomat and that has a fun premise. Imagine... MATH. This wasn't supposed to draw the way we do things into question. The way we do stuff is fine, it works. It seems likely that 18 year olds in the Star Trek universe would have far more knowledge than what our skill system gives them credit for. Our skill system mostly just allows for characters to be literate and have a couple 10 point skills to start out with. Basically nothing really useful other than being able to communicate in Federation Standard. Even in our day and age kids pick up far more knowledge (and skills ) than that, even with our crappy public schools. But it works because we never play characters just starting out at the academy. Typically we start playing the character sometime after they have finished the academy. The mathematics skill, as it is described in the rules, seems like one of those universal skills that all Federation citizens might have (at least at a level of 10 or higher.) by virtue of having attended K-12 school. Much like being literate in Federation Standard. There are a number skills that do in fact seem that way. It isn't just our skills system that has this break with reality, the original FASA rules we took this stuff from treated things the same way.
|
|
Ensign Sebetharen Adryan
Unassigned Officers
Delta Operations Team Leader
Application of skill determines worth, and karma.
Posts: 1,233
|
Post by Ensign Sebetharen Adryan on Aug 4, 2016 15:33:17 GMT -5
That was the point I was trying to make. Just having the skill there makes no sense as so many skills that would require it. A mathematics skill, as I stated above, would only be good as a perquisite skill, if our system had a perquisite system. It's existence just doesn't make sense as it is unlikely to ever be utilized in an effective roll. Much less so than even the survival skills would.
|
|
DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
|
Post by DGM Cygnus on Aug 4, 2016 16:06:37 GMT -5
The system is flawed on the side of allowing too many distinct skills, other systems may make more sense, but this works for our needs since it allows a great level of character expression and growth, while giving the GM a solid guide of what a character is good at and enforcing sensible role playing on a player stepping outside his or her character scope.
In the past, we did have players simply claim (on demand) to have skill and experience in something without any development or relevant sense to it. Player and character also transfer or get new game masters, so it also protects their past efforts in that the newer game master can get a general idea of a character skill set without the first hand experience, in a perfect world.
|
|
|
Post by DGM Soft Kitty on Aug 4, 2016 16:19:40 GMT -5
Just to clear things up a litte as it also might be misinterpreted with my points: @ Kitty: I meant that GM can crush it, more as joke. I did not know the history, and that this could not be understood as a joke. So everything is fine there, Kitty. Hon, you are new and the Kitty never assumes We have had payers come from such guilds or fleets where there is an Officers 'class' or the leadership is all controlling and even tyrannical You are just getting to know us and we and you. So i had to address it, trust me i did not take personal nor was i mad nor offended in anyway. Also i did not expect a system where you have to roll for every move you do. So i am good with Storybased rp, also. (Acutally thats what i want). Again, the kitty can not assume. Some have been in the fleet or have come here from such MMO or tabletop expecting exactly that. It had to be addressed. Which why hon, i sorta counseled playing through an event with us and seeing it in actual gameplay. I felt it might clear up some initial confusion or questions I wanted to take the discussion out of the shoutbox and into the forum, so that a GM can clear out what was not clear and i found the Topic to complex to talk about it over the shoutbox. So the thread was not to create drama, it was to give more space to talk about it. Also to everyone, as a usual heads up for such threads, the previous fleet leader often found it necessary to lock them if discussions got to heated or unnecessary drama erupted for them. Please while i love a good debate let's not do this here. Not saying it will, just such threads have a horrid history here over the last 5 years I think you misunderstood, this was not aimed at you. That was a general Kitty Warning to all given where such a topic can lead. Had I thought you had do so with such intent I would've directly addressed it hon to you.
Kitty no shy
You're good and as Seb said, I do enjoy a nice good debate and discussion, always leads to understanding. My warning was to ensure it remains a 'a nice good debate and discussion'
-hugs all around-
- Kitty
|
|