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Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Jun 10, 2014 11:18:28 GMT -5
I am not a big fan of sweeping changes. As has been pointed out there is no evidence that the character system we are using a significant factor in the fleet's membership difficulties and thus as changes meant to improve overall fleet quality (including RP) are concerned, it doesn't seem like a good place to start.
These sort of threads typically end one of two ways. 1) endless debate followed by tempers flaring and the thread being closed. 2) Some fleet leader unilaterally imposing changes over any and all objections.
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Post by Captain Anja Malitzka on Jun 10, 2014 12:25:08 GMT -5
It is why I have ADVOCATED over- And over- that players remain IN CHARACTER at all times. I had even played with the idea of shutting down- Daedalus OOC, and making players have to communicate on other RP Community OOC Channels. Like STORP, and forcing only IC Interaction while within the fleet. It's is in my experience that these large changes often have the fasts results. Some of you aren't old enough to remember that this fleet has transformed three times since the first day STO launched. Maybe it is time for reorganization? It confounds me really- the amount of the emotional grip I see during a session when roll is bad, or role playing has taken a turn that player didn't anticipate, or where careers / relationships have reached place that isn't happy. Time after, Time, we snap to the OOC to see if we can meta-a better outcome, or one that is more acceptable to the player OOCly. What kind of hell is that for the Game Masters? Or myself who really has tried over and over to give the most realistic Starfleet Experience one can get in rolepalying. If we cut out the OOC channel, I think we'd probably have even more difficulty locating and maintaining a player base. The OOC channel is the introduction to the rest of the fleet. Also, very few people want to be IC all the time, especially since given out unique structure IF WE ARE IC ALL THE TIME MOST OF US CAN NEVER INTERACT. We have an entire ship that's completely out of contact. We have two other ships that are frequently set in major events that are paused between weeks. I have characters that, IC, do not like other people I'm friendly with OOC. And the OOC griping is frequently because the dice system in STO, combined with our skill system, is disgustingly flawed. We've had weeks where a crew that is supposedly competent has been unable to have more than half of the rolls made be under 90. PS in other games Nyo and I have RP'd in a failed roll could result in your being eaten by a demon, your skin peeled off or molten metal being poured down your throat. Fails here are pretty mild in comparison and through rp you can usually navigate your way back to a better path in a session or two. The biggest problem is that, from the perspective of someone who enjoys both the roleplaying and mechanical sides of RPG's, our system is actually bad. We use it because our dice option is the d100. d100 systems are infuriating to me most of the time, because the only way to make them fair you need to apply a lot of modifiers to rolls. Our system tells us you can be professional at 40... which would mean that over half the time you are forced to actually perform your job, you fail. With our system, if we were extreme with danger both the Sentinel and the Adagio would have been destroyed and their entire crews dead. The only way to fix what I believe to be the real problem with the system would be to require even more book-keeping from the DGM's (well, this is a simple task, so you get a +30, this task is insane so you've got a -30). I know we're not going to do that.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 12:51:01 GMT -5
I disagree Cyg, I think I explain that in the skill system and in the gm section i even spent an entire paragraph explaining the role of the gm within the rulebook and how to handle god moding characters and gm characters. You can more look at my base rulebook as a combat engine. It is balanced around being a combat engine or action engine like fixing things, it makes character skills actually usable. And forces everyone on the same baseline and are skill dependent.
The stories get told by the players and the gm.
Here is an example from a recent adagio event.
When talia rolls a critical success on the attack of the ship it triggered an unintended side effect of secondary explosions that made the chiefs mission easier.
the chief beamed aboard, when he encountered the wounded bolian, he would have attempted diplomacy, which failed giving the bolian an action, in that action the bolian critically failed and the chief crit succeeded with his marksman shot which in this case is the chief would have a mastered tree only needed a roll of 65 or greater which eviscerated the bolian.
each of these actions is quickly handled in my system. However there is a GM burden to make it work, the gm has to provide the feedback on all player actions in this case and that isn't easy.
Character level gain gives your characters progression and also gives them more robust "lives" before they suffer catastrophe.
Again my system is a game, and i am not making it out to be something that it is not, I am simply clearing up places I don't think you quite got it.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 13:20:36 GMT -5
Give me credit I actually read and understood the entirety and even discussed with others when it was originally presented Liam.
My statement stands, if people are dissatisfied and want a new way...present it and if others are keen to try it out and Talia is on-board, I will allow that person a month to demonstrate it on Adagio in practice and in events and I will simply observe. Then we will take it form there. That is the best offer I can make and I make no promises I will be willing to make a transition to a new system, we will have to see.
~the demoness
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jun 10, 2014 13:53:54 GMT -5
Personally, I'd like to avoid putting extra effort on any one person. We already have issues with ships going weeks without RP because either the Captain or GM are missing that night. That is something I'm hoping we can fix, but it's not really what we're trying to solve in this thread.
The two biggest questions here are fairly simple:
1. Are you happy with the way things are going in this fleet?
2. If not, what specific changes would you like to make?
You've all heard my thoughts on possible changes to the skill system. It's not the biggest problem, but it is something that could be improved. We can stick with what we have, or use something else like the streamlining I proposed, the TNG system (instead of the TOS system we're currently using for some reason), O'donegan's system, or something else entirely. Regardless, I hope you guys will at least consider the possibility of making changes. We are a fairly small fleet right now, and if we ever hope to increase our numbers, we need to at least look at what options we have.
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Post by Vice Admiral Nyoko Honda on Jun 10, 2014 14:01:56 GMT -5
There is the option shorting the list of the current system. Which Erys has offered her thoughts on.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 14:39:17 GMT -5
There is the option shorting the list of the current system. Which Erys has offered her thoughts on. I think those interesting "fluff" skills are critical, the problem is people simply never immerse themselves to the point of using them in their role playing, they are stuck on trying to "win". I also wanted to employ "stress point" saving throw rolls. Meaning a character have phobias, anxieties or what not or even new encounters that as a GM I deem would invoke a serve emotional or mental stress on a character. If a character failed the stress roll the player would now have act out actions as if under serve mental and emotional trauma until it got resolved somehow. But I did not think people would like it nor implement it well in practice, so deemed it not worth the effort. ~the demoness
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 15:06:41 GMT -5
Erys i think the solution to captain's and gms missing a night actually is a fun one.
I think that is the night for a bottle episode. Every player should come up with a few quirky bottle episodes around their character or the absence of their character, then when an event like that happens. We have a bottle episode gmed by one of the other players.
This also takes some of the burden off of the gms when it comes to filler content.
ex- Adagio "Murphy's Law"
The captain is off the ship on leave, Cmdr Arnimane and the adagio science team are using this time to run some scans on a nearby nebula, when members of the crew start to go missing followed by entire decks being in the wrong place, is it a temporal anomaly or something else. Find out.
The crew splinter into smaller groups has to work together to solve the mystery and save the ship. Perhaps its Gm'd by the chief who is one of the first characters to go missing. The action is designed for a conclusion in one play session and there are lots of opportunities for character interactions.
And this is where a simplified system comes into play, it makes it easier to craft content lights the load on the GMs and in this case would let cyg simply play xae instead of having to play her with metaknowledge.
If we were going to adapt my system, I would write a new version catered to our needs. the Skill loadout would definitely get some additions as would the concept of grade.
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Post by DGM Soft Kitty on Jun 10, 2014 16:13:31 GMT -5
Um,...okies. Here is my take on the shortening of the list. I use those skills on occasion. Often as a DGM, a player will get a tell to make a roll. Yhen the players rolls and often one of the skills listed as being cut is the one Im asking the player to use to either help his primary skill in the area or to use it on its own merit. Often I don't announce the skill set or the bonus offered (often for dramatic purposes) but it seems to work well on the Sentinel...in fact well I will get to that later. I sorta like the way the current system works...a 1-100 system is fairly easy to follow and even the way the creation of the sheet works is sorta given out in a step by step method. All it really takes is just some off computer tally sheet and then add up the totals..um that is sorta basic math. It is not that difficult, atleast it wasnt for me and before this fleet Ive only had what could be called limited table top rp experience. But I am late to the part here so I will answer the given questions. I take it my absence due to RL things I could not control dropped a bomb here. Again I am sorry but what I had to deal with was very painful and had to be dealt with before I could return here. As for how to fix such a thing...I agree with Erys my absence and the issues it caused is for another thread. So I guess this is the issue at hand : The two biggest questions here are fairly simple:
1. Are you happy with the way things are going in this fleet?
2. If not, what specific changes would you like to make?So here is my take then : 1 - One for me at this time, yes I am. I enjoy the events and I am around for pretty much every event going in the fleet. I am basically involved with all three ships and I'm pretty much on for 50% of the fleet's time not to mention the LCARS, the character sheet updates, and the Medal Awards Plaques and even IC Task Force Maps to show where the Adagio and Sentinel are at any given time. All to help maintain a real fleet fell for the immersion experience. Im pretty good i guess at NPC interaction (i.e. Variety and Speed in Response) or so I thought. And I try and craft scenes (both As Liz/Talia and as DGM) that draw people to interact with one another and such. I also keep updating our STO Forums gaming thread as best I can to keep us in folks mind and try to find those rpers who like how we roleplay! I am aware my time is limited to be online for non event stuff, which cuts down some on my contributions to the ongoing STO non rp stuff so each month as a lifetimer I take my monthly lifetime 1000 CP allowance and buy as much Dilthium as I can and pour all of it into the Starbase/DilthMine/Spire/Embassy. Which is the best I can do given my work schedule. So to be honest I am happy with the fleet. I do still enjoy the events and I am happy to play each week with to me atleast role playing with some of the best, the smarest and most creative role players I've ever role played with. Is the fleet perfect, no it isnt. But maybe I am just either niave or just unexperienced but this is my position. I enjoy rping with you all, I find DGMing on Sundays to be a fun challenge and each week give you guys a chance to tell me if you've had fun. That isnt a line of insecurity, its a moment i am asking if everyone had fun...if not to let me know. So far most of you seem happy, so I thought. So what would I change, I am unsure i can answer here because well I am having fun and to me that is the indication i like how the fleer is. I am unsure what else I can do more then I am already doing to alter it. I think Ny has set up a unique playing enviroment for us to play in and a cool 'pool' to swim in metaphorically with a simple yet balanced way to secure such fun be fair (Pool's Rules ). Also not saying I'm resitant to any changes either. Just wanted my position stated, even with its failings. I love you guys and this fleet, believe me its been a source of great fun for me even in the oddest moments of fleet drama. Its been a lovely escape for me and a nice way to relieve RL stress, which goes to the two DGM's I work closely with (Xae and Tibby!) and my IC skippers (Ny!!! and Hann as Z!!!) the role play for me has always been AWES with them! They do listen and allow me to be very creative with my characters and still keep it realistic as niether Liz nor Talia are perfect and they even excell in some of those flaws and failed dice rolls Just my two cents to be honest.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 16:21:20 GMT -5
[jax] Don't know... liz is pretty perfect.... i mean.... [Zala] Sush you.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 16:35:57 GMT -5
Erys, if you finalize this shortened skill list and how training and new character creation would work along with any needed GM stuff, and present that, I will then put it up for Adagio players to vote on and get Talia's personal feedback. If they want to try it out then you can run Adagio events for a month showing us how it is done after you make a coverted copy of active player sheets to your system.
Liam same goes for you. I can put it up for vote and Talia's feedback right now. If it flies then you get a month you show us how it is done after you make a coverted copy of active player sheets to your system.
Anja. I'm sorry you think our system sucks.
We are not apposed to change, but people will have to work to show us first hand something better in action for us to abandon something we are making work right now.
~the demoness
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Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Jun 10, 2014 16:58:20 GMT -5
Like Kitty I would answer the question "Are you happy with the way things are going in this fleet?" I would answer yes. I am very happy with the Sentinel RP, I enjoy my self every time we gather for an event. Its a good group and a great GM. My worry is that it will end too soon, like so many other RP ships that have come and gone.
This isn't to say that changes can't be made, anything can be improved. But we need to be careful not to thrown the baby out with the bathwater and ruin the good stuff.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 17:00:33 GMT -5
Cyg my system would require a re-roll of sorts as it is level based. as far as character sheets are concerned everyone would be "nerfed".
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 17:10:08 GMT -5
One of the issues with changing any established system to a new one...the conversion.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 17:12:32 GMT -5
Yeah but some of our character sheets are a bit ridiculous
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