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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jun 9, 2014 17:32:25 GMT -5
As discussed earlier today, some of us would like to at least consider an overhaul of various components of the fleet. For me, the two biggest issues are the skill system and the disconnection between our fleet's timeline and the rest of STO.
For the skill system, the majority of the problem is how confusing it all is for new players. A good system needs to be simple enough to understand, but also useful for RP situations. So here's my proposal for changes to the skills.
And after the updates:
Administration Artistic Expression Carousing Close Quarters Combat Communication Systems Computer Systems Deflector Shield Systems Gaming (Specific) General Engineering (Includes Damage Control, Electronics, Life Support, Mechanical, and Shuttlecraft systems) Instruction Language (Specific) Leadership Life Sciences (Includes Biontics, Botany, Ecology, Exobiology, Genetics, Zoology) Marksmanship Medical Sciences (First Aid, Pathology, Psycology, Surgery) (these are still individual skills) Perception Physical Sciences (Includes Chemistry, Computer Science, Mathematics) Piloting Planetary Sciences (Includes Geology, Hydrology, Meteorology) Planetary Survival (Includes arctic, cool temperate, warm temperate, tropical, and desert planets) Security Procedures Small Equipment Systems Social Sciences (Includes archaeology, economics, law, political science, racial culture/history) Space Sciences (Includes Astrogation, Astronautics, Astrophysics, Astronomy) Sports (Specific) Strategy/Tactics Starship Sensors Starship Weaponry Streetwise Transporter Systems Trivia (Specific) Vehicle Operation (Specific) Warp Drive Technology Zero-G Operations
We'd have to adjust the basic training a little, but that's been needed for a while anyway. Regardless, I think these skills are fairly simple, but still specific enough to allow for a good idea of a person's ability.
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Post by Kossuth on Jun 9, 2014 18:29:04 GMT -5
It would be really intuitive if we grouped it by division.
- Command
Administration Piloting Leadership Instruction
- Tactical/Security
Close Quarters Combat Marksmanship Security Procedures Starship Weaponry Strategy/Tactics Zero-G Operations
- Engineering/Operations
Computer Systems Generla Engineering Small Equipment Systems Starship Sensors Transporter Systems Warp Drive Technology Computer Systems Deflector Shield Systems
- Science/Medical
Life Sciences Medical Sciences Physical Sciences Social Sciences Space Sciences
- General
Perception Carousing Artistic Expression Languages Gaming Streetwise Planetary Survival Trivia Vehicle Operation Sports
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 9, 2014 18:37:06 GMT -5
Its a good cut down of skills. I do approve of this.
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Post by Lt Cmdr Billie Jo Spencer MD on Jun 9, 2014 18:56:21 GMT -5
Just as a note, before people get to excited about eliminating skills, there is a such thing as over simplification.
Just from a brief look at this I quickly spotted some problems. One there is no skill titled "General Engineering", The closest would be the "Space Science (Astronautics)" but even that doesn't cover everything they do in Engineering. "Mechanical Engineering" is not general starship engineering according to the rule book, the astronautics skill used to be called starship engineering, or something like that. Also the skill of damage control is worthy of its own skill outright.
Damage control includes the concepts and techniques required to successfully fight and extinguish shipboard fires, contain hull breaches as well as affect temporary repairs to restore operational integrity. Damage control training would also include instruction for crewmen in self-protection against the effects of smoke, nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Additionally it is a skill taught to all crewmen aboard a starship, not just engineers. Even though engineers may receive special training as they would be expected to lead damage control teams and keep the crews training in damage control up to date. The problem with lumping this into some general engineering skill is that while non-engineers may have training in damage control they wouldn't necessarily have training in other general engineering skills like repairing impulse engines. To simulate the fact that a person could be well trained in one and not the other separate skills may be required.
Rolling computer operation and computer repair into the same skill is problematic since their are three computer skills in the rules. It neglects the "Physical Science (Computer Science)" skill, which would also be likely to have overlap with computer operation. It also neglects the fact that it is possible to be very good at operating a computer (browsing the web, searching databases, officer programs, etc.) and know nothing about repairing systems.
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Post by Captain Erys Murai on Jun 9, 2014 19:53:27 GMT -5
You have to remember too that the rules we're currently using are from the TOS system, which was designed when technology and computers required a lot more hands-on effort. Starfleet technology in general is a lot easier to diagnose and repair than it was back then, let alone use.
That's part of why I had Computer stuff together, because "browsing the web, searching databases, officer programs, etc." is routine stuff that would almost never require a skill roll. What does require skill rolls are things like writing a program, writing new subroutines, or repairing the computer itself.
I should also point out that a lot of these skills are core skills anyway. It's just that most crew members are specialized in one area or another. That doesn't mean other officers can't pitch in (and in fact we saw a lot of cases where non-engineers would help in repair, or non-combat officers would also fight, etc), but the specialized officers will be noticeably better.
That being said, I'm not opposed to leaving DCT as a separate skill, or even some of the science skills. But the goal is to make the system simpler to use, so we should try for a balance there.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 9, 2014 21:34:24 GMT -5
I think the amount of rolling required in our events is low, our focus is the role playing interaction...less mechanic and rolling intensive. I think having the skills like they are and numerous gives us as a GMs better perspective and way to curtail player attempts to god-mode their characters and in turn gives players alot of ways to add nuisance and develop over time. You will have to come up with more to sell me on this idea considering I think the system works as it, plus the amount of years of work I have put into our skill system in its current form.
New players always are going to take time to acclimate and we have not had a large influx of new players in some time. New players on Adagio have not typically sited confusion about the skill system as a big issue long term. They tend to site "life issues" for not being with us if I ever get feedback.
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Post by Vice Admiral Nyoko Honda on Jun 10, 2014 6:25:14 GMT -5
I was hanging out in the chat the other day. When this conversation came up. Erys presented herself as subject matter expert as to the criticisms we get from outside the fleet. In past years, I never really cared about others thought about us. I've always believed in the path I saw, and lead us down it, without any reservations.
Though, from fleet point of view- ... IS the dice system dated? Can we stand for improvement by leasing the introduction curve? Does it scare off more people when the look at our fleet.
Here's another question. Quality of over Quantity, Do we wanna be like other fleets where there's just no expectation and players just RP how awesome they are in flex competition? I have not seen another fleet offer what we do- for as long as we have, in the quality that we do.
Do we really want people who aren't up to our standards just because we are looking for numbers?
The hardest challenge I've been dealing with in the later years of Star Trek Online is that the pool where we used to pull recruits out of has shrunk so small. That the Role Players that remain are ether with us- or they are long time veterans in other rp communities, such as STORP, and a few of the Starship Crew Fleets that still manage to SIM on week to week basis.
We have too look at what it, we truly want, and how far we are willing to sacrifice our values to reinvent ourselves to fit in with Community of RPer's that are content with role playing that hardly fits the epicness we all enjoy here. Yet this fleet is suffering form serious personality clashing, and ungodly amount of Metagamming, which I won't lie- has drove me off to seek other options time and time again (when real life wasn't kicking my butt). What kills me the hardest is when a player because of OOC resentments chooses quitting, or restricting there roleplaying to sideline / outside the fleet because they aren't getting along. For the Game Masters, because our options are so limited we are forced to accept this as an acceptable measure for these problems rather then coming together and being professional about it.
It is why I have ADVOCATED over- And over- that players remain IN CHARACTER at all times. I had even played with the idea of shutting down- Daedalus OOC, and making players have to communicate on other RP Community OOC Channels. Like STORP, and forcing only IC Interaction while within the fleet. It's is in my experience that these large changes often have the fasts results. Some of you aren't old enough to remember that this fleet has transformed three times since the first day STO launched. Maybe it is time for reorganization?
It confounds me really- the amount of the emotional grip I see during a session when roll is bad, or role playing has taken a turn that player didn't anticipate, or where careers / relationships have reached place that isn't happy. Time after, Time, we snap to the OOC to see if we can meta-a better outcome, or one that is more acceptable to the player OOCly. What kind of hell is that for the Game Masters? Or myself who really has tried over and over to give the most realistic Starfleet Experience one can get in rolepalying.
I've been bouncing back and forth between games for year now and have come back too Daedalus to see that- None of you guys have given up. I mean really your most sturbon bunch of players I've met. Each time I gamble that fleet is going to fail, I lose. In this- I have come to realize that to keep all your attentions as long as we have despite all the terrible anatomist behind scenes that some of you harbor for one another we really must have something special.
In this instance I really want to know- what holds us back? I've heard Erys arguments. In a lot of ways I can't help but to think they are just her own personal issues with fleet and her suggestions are what she would do if she was boss. Though if there are others opinions of the same as her's please speak now.
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VADM Meranda Kalavek (Ret.)
Unassigned Officers
Fleet C.O. of the 22nd Mobile Fleet (Ret.)
Attaching her signature stamp to Shed's paws and letting him play amongst her paperwork...
Posts: 602
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Post by VADM Meranda Kalavek (Ret.) on Jun 10, 2014 8:06:22 GMT -5
I normally don't reply and just read what I see posted and ponder on it. The result being in most cases so far that some ones already figured it out and I don't have to comment. I prefer to remain in the back ground in most cases and become directly involved when invited or requested. This though may be a time for two cents. Ive had something on my mind for over a year now though. During that time ive been considering what the pro's and cons could be if the fleet were opened up a bit more. Invite in people who want to play the game and do the activities provided by cryptic. This would be a few at first to see how its goes. They get to work with the older players in the fleet who want to do the activities and fleet projects while at the same time as they play they can observe whats going on in the rp channels on ship nights. This will possibly generate RP interest in joining a crew, possibly coming in as extras or at the very least progress the fleet in a way most players understand and in turn attract more quality players who may become rp'ers through exposure. Just a thought.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 8:37:46 GMT -5
The way i see it the problem is two fold.
Timeline wise we are pretty far advanced of the normal sto timeline, but that is mainly due to the fact that sto stayed in 2409 for 6 years, this isn't an easy fix.
My solution to this would be to sync events but not dates and then use fuzz logic to interact with other fleets.
The second problem is the stable of roleplayers that fit into our system is insanely small.
Most people use RP as some sort of escape from failings in real life. I mean consider the audience of a star trek game. They don't like being told no or not being the best because RP to them is some sort of wish fulfillment. This type of roleplayer never makes it with us because their pet character doesn't get to command the most experimental ship in the fleet while being irresistible to ever single thing in a skirt. We can't fix this one, that is like trying to turn a drozana cybersex tourist into a real roleplayer.
As for the system, its a bulky, hard to understand for new players and leads to some pretty ridiculous characters and for the most part rarely used in actual game sessions. You've seen the one i developed to solve these issues for a different type of game, and that system is not exactly a fit for our fleet rp but it did solve the barrier of entry skill ( my mates and I use it for just standard table top now)
But there is also a major debate on whether or not we should even have a skill and roll system, when people fail rolls they get upset, which is just counterproductive.
There is no easy answer here.
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VADM Meranda Kalavek (Ret.)
Unassigned Officers
Fleet C.O. of the 22nd Mobile Fleet (Ret.)
Attaching her signature stamp to Shed's paws and letting him play amongst her paperwork...
Posts: 602
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Post by VADM Meranda Kalavek (Ret.) on Jun 10, 2014 8:47:04 GMT -5
PS in other games Nyo and I have RP'd in a failed roll could result in your being eaten by a demon, your skin peeled off or molten metal being poured down your throat. Fails here are pretty mild in comparison and through rp you can usually navigate your way back to a better path in a session or two.
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Post by Vice Admiral Nyoko Honda on Jun 10, 2014 9:51:55 GMT -5
Invite in people who want to play the game and do the activities provided by cryptic. This would be a few at first to see how its goes. They get to work with the older players in the fleet who want to do the activities and fleet projects while at the same time as they play they can observe whats going on in the rp channels on ship nights. This will possibly generate RP interest in joining a crew, possibly coming in as extras or at the very least progress the fleet in a way most players understand and in turn attract more quality players who may become rp'ers through exposure. Just a thought. Best idea I've heared all week.
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Post by Lt Commander Marcus Aquila on Jun 10, 2014 10:03:16 GMT -5
PS in other games Nyo and I have RP'd in a failed roll could result in your being eaten by a demon, your skin peeled off or molten metal being poured down your throat. Fails here are pretty mild in comparison and through rp you can usually navigate your way back to a better path in a session or two. Same with mine but character death seems to be some big deal here. No one has got their dick shot off by a crossbow yet.
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 10:47:53 GMT -5
For my part, I have given little effort into thinking of sweeping changes for the fleet. I have been busy ensuring we at least have role playing events every week that hopefully foster addition creative role playing for players on their own (which rarely happens), working with the resources and systems I have. By and large it is a thankless task since no one ever seems happy with the outcome. So considering the lack of appreciation I feel, the best I can offer is to listen and try to accommodate pushed forward changes, if I cannot or do not want to, then it will be time for someone else to step up and provide the content instead.
Opening up the fleet or changing rules or whatever seems pointless, because most of us are not actively playing the game with others and bringing them into our circle. I have purposely hosted events in social hubs where other player mingle to TRY and get our fleet actively interacting with people outside our niche and I stop because most everyone does not put in any effort and it fails. I see no better way of getting and maintaining new members then casually slipping them into our role playing (without them even knowing it) and interacting with them.
So if everyone wants to make sweeping changes, that is fine. I make no promises I will come along for the ride...
~the demoness
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Post by Vice Admiral Nyoko Honda on Jun 10, 2014 10:48:20 GMT -5
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DGM Cygnus
Game Master Group
Assistant Admin / DGM of the USS Adagio
Posts: 2,191
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Post by DGM Cygnus on Jun 10, 2014 10:57:33 GMT -5
It lacks a way for me to judge how well a player is role playing their character and deal with poor role playing issus, since it has no depth and distinction to provide a baseline. It seems best suited for "procedurally generated" content and I will just come out and say it...disposable characters, not free-form within a setting framework with enduring characters like we provide now.
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